Give Sisco another Chance

[Ruzious]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

At least with Sisco we can tell ourselves it's growing pains, getting used to the speed of the game up here.  

I'd call them low baseball IQ type errors.  Hopefully, he learns from them - I certainly haven't given up on him.  

[Ruzious]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

He said he saw Mancini getting a huge lead off 2B and decided that if Mancini took off, so would he.    

Not sure I like the manager and the catcher throwing others under the bus, but if that's what happened, it's good to know.  Still, it was Sisco that got thrown out.  Gotta wonder what Mancini was thinking, because they'd gain practically nothing with a runner stealing 3rd with 2 outs.  It really only made sense if was as part of a double steal, and it didn't make sense because neither of those guys can run.  

So fine, there was a brain-dead play.  I can live with that.  But then Sisco throws the ball past first base letting in a run and then misses a very easy tag - giving up another run.

And we lose 3-2.  That's really bad.  But hey, it's a 162 game season.  We can still win 100... er 50.  

 

 

 

 

[Frobby]

In case anyone didn’t see the play:   https://www.mlb.com/athletics/video/andrew-cashner-in-play-run-s-to-matt-olson

1.   Bad decision by Sisco to throw, as he had no chance to beat the runner.

2.   Bad throw.

3.    Bad play by Davis not to either make the scoop or keep the ball in front of him.  

4.    Bad tag attempt by Sisco on the throw home, trying to tag a body part a foot above the plate rather than just putting the glove at ground level and letting the runner slide into it.   

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, El_Duderino said:

Yes you are one of the few.  Tagging is  something so fixable that to me it’s not worth sweating.  I’m more excited that he drew a walk last night.

Generally I am more frustrated that posters seem beholden to early scouting reports on prospects. It’s been especially bad with Sisco.

First off, you can like whoever you like. Just because others do not share your views does not make them "haters". Sisco has clear deficiencies in his defensive game, even now after all of that  minor league development. He's never going to be a good defensive catcher. Can he improve still sure, that's possible, but it has always been more than his throwing.

Offensively he's hitting the ball hard so far this season and that's obviously a good sign. The EV isn't great but he has a 50% hard hit rate so far in the early going though that K rate suggest some regression there. 

For me personally, I'm fine with them giving him PAs, but I would rather see Severino get more of the PAs behind the dish with Sisco picking up some DH PAs. 

[HowAboutThat]

2 hours ago, El_Duderino said:

Not sure how his hitting in the upper minors has been a concern. OBP of .352 at AAA and .396 at AA.

Either way I’m not arguing that he is a finished product, just that we shouldn’t be overacting to every bad play he has. Especially on a team that is going to lose 110+ games, and at any time may have a lineup with several guys batting sub .200.

I don’t think anybody is being abnormally negative, and I think everybody wants him to succeed.

When reacting to his play, one hopes to see multiple outstanding plays for every bad play, and there may have been some that I’ve missed. But it seems that there have been multiple bad plays without corresponding good ones. A bad throw is just a bad throw, Every catcher does that once in a while. At least there was someone at the base! And tootblans, good heavens, there are plenty of them to go around. However, both of the missed tags drew complaints from even the most experienced people here.

At some point, the decision has to be made about whether his offense can adequately compensate for his defense. I’m not suggesting we are there yet, but there’s nothing wrong with wondering about it.

[El_Duderino]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

First off, you can like whoever you like. Just because others do not share your views does not make them "haters". Sisco has clear deficiencies in his defensive game, even now after all of that  minor league development. He's never going to be a good defensive catcher. Can he improve still sure, that's possible, but it has always been more than his throwing.

Offensively he's hitting the ball hard so far this season and that's obviously a good sign. The EV isn't great but he has a 50% hard hit rate so far in the early going though that K rate suggest some regression there. 

For me personally, I'm fine with them giving him PAs, but I would rather see Severino get more of the PAs behind the dish with Sisco picking up some DH PAs. 

Guess we will agree to disagree. I don’t believe in any pitch framing stats or that someone can be a consistently bad tagger. He seems to block the ball in the dirt just fine. His throwing may eventually reveal itself to be consistently subpar, but I for one need to see more before I slap that label on him.  Having said all that, a poor throwing catcher isn’t really all that big of a liability imo. Last year teams averaged .68 steal attempts per game. What’s more important to a teams success is how a catcher hits.

And I like what I’ve seen from Severino a lot, but if he gets the lions share of starts back there then we are doing this rebuild wrong. 

[Legend_Of_Joey]

5 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

Guess we will agree to disagree. I don’t believe in any pitch framing stats or that someone can be a consistently bad tagger. He seems to block the ball in the dirt just fine. His throwing may eventually reveal itself to be consistently subpar, but I for one need to see more before I slap that label on him.  Having said all that, a poor throwing catcher isn’t really all that big of a liability imo. Last year teams averaged .68 steal attempts per game. What’s more important to a teams success is how a catcher hits.

And I like what I’ve seen from Severino a lot, but if he gets the lions share of starts back there then we are doing this rebuild wrong. 

There is more to catching than just what you do with the bat. Unless you are Mike Piazza.

If the first time you are seeing him play is in the majors, then there isn't as much to go on. When you have seen him play since Frederick (or earlier) and watch his defense production over a whole season, then you really start noticing things.

[ScGO's]

if he keeps hitting, could he be an answer at 2B or 3B?  Body type seems to fit there.  Probably not afraid of staying down on a ball. I feel like this has been discussed before.

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, ScGO's said:

if he keeps hitting, could he be an answer at 2B or 3B?  Body type seems to fit there.  Probably not afraid of staying down on a ball. I feel like this has been discussed before.

I don't think he has the foot speed for 2B unless he happens to have JJ Hardy like instincts and reaction time.  

I think 3B should be explored, although it's likely a long shot that he can be adequate or better there.  He was a High School shortstop, for whatever that is worth. 

Most likely he's going to just have to be a hit first, defensively challenged (backup?) catcher getting occasional starts at DH.  I don't think he has or will have the bat to be a pure DH/1B.  

[eddie83]

He has looked very poor behind the plate. Palmer basically called him out multiple times last night. He doesn’t frame well and his pitch selection. ScOtt said Olson had something to say about pitch selection as well.  

I know ultimately the pitcher has the final say but considering the youth of our rotation the catcher is important. I hope he keeps playing because why not but there is zero evidence his defense has improved to a major league level. 

I still think his best bet is to be an extra player off the bench, a number 3 catcher type which may have a spot on some teams when they go to 26 man rosters next year.  

[mdoriolefan]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

He has looked very poor behind the plate. Palmer basically called him out multiple times last night. He doesn’t frame well and his pitch selection. ScOtt said Olson had something to say about pitch selection as well.  

I know ultimately the pitcher has the final say but considering the youth of our rotation the catcher is important. I hope he keeps playing because why not but there is zero evidence his defense has improved to a major league level. 

I still think his best bet is to be an extra player off the bench, a number 3 catcher type which may have a spot on some teams when they go to 26 man rosters next year.  

Do you or anybody else think that a better pitch caller would help any of our current pitchers improve in the slightest?  We have many problems but do we compound the problem with two young catchers?

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

He has looked very poor behind the plate. Palmer basically called him out multiple times last night. He doesn’t frame well and his pitch selection. ScOtt said Olson had something to say about pitch selection as well.  

I know ultimately the pitcher has the final say but considering the youth of our rotation the catcher is important. I hope he keeps playing because why not but there is zero evidence his defense has improved to a major league level. 

I still think his best bet is to be an extra player off the bench, a number 3 catcher type which may have a spot on some teams when they go to 26 man rosters next year.  

That's rich coming from Palmer.  He's the poster boy for not trusting his catcher and calling his own game from the mound.

[eddie83]

Just now, mdoriolefan said:

Do you or anybody else think that a better pitch caller would help any of our current pitchers improve in the slightest?  We have many problems but do we compound the problem with two young catchers?

Sure they can help. 

I think the biggest issues is our pitchers have dreadful command. They just are not any good. 

They are trying to giving opportunities to players. The front office is intelligent enough to see who has skills and who does not. 

I think what you are saying is another example of why our record is meaningless this year. There are ways to modestly improve the team such as a good defender behind the plate but then you aren’t giving a Sisco a chance. There are other examples this year. You take a Steve Wilkerson and use him as a true utility player instead of playing him so much. You take a Bundy out the first sign of trouble in the 6th instead of pushing him, etc.  

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

That's rich coming from Palmer.  He's the poster boy for not trusting his catcher and calling his own game from the mound.

Well he is in the HOF.  The guys on the mound need all the help they can get.  

 

[HowAboutThat]

2 minutes ago, mdoriolefan said:

Do you or anybody else think that a better pitch caller would help any of our current pitchers improve in the slightest?  We have many problems but do we compound the problem with two young catchers?

Last night hunter and Palmer both were complaining about how the umpire was calling balls on all the close pitches. Palmer specifically mentioned bad framing. Watching Sisco catch is weird. He snatches at the ball instead of waiting for it to come to him. Framing is a real skill whether one acknowledges it or not, and yes a good framer will help a pitcher. I’m not seeing anything from Sisco that indicates his offense will compensate for his defense. Right now it is only frustrating, but more frustrating is the growing realization that Sisco was probably a wasted pick.