Brewers non-tender Schoop.

[atomic]

26 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

 You have no idea what would have happened if he had gotten more play appearances. 

That is why I said

 

 If Beckham had as many plate appearances as Schoop his OWar would be higher if his other numbers stayed the same.  

His numbers could be higher or they could be lower. No way of telling. 
 

[Frobby]

45 minutes ago, atomic said:

Doesn't change the fact their offensive stats are basically the same.  Schoop just has gotten a lot more plate appearances than Beckham.  2640 vs 1423.   If Beckham had as many plate appearances as Schoop his OWar would be higher if his other numbers stayed the same.   They are very similar players.  

If one guy has played twice as much as the other, despite being 18 months younger, there’s usually a reason.  For that reason,  I think Schoop is considerably better than Beckham.    And I’m not as down on Beckham as some around here are.  

[atomic]

42 minutes ago, Aglets said:

Nelson Cruz has better career batting numbers than Manny Machado.   Is he a better player than Manny?

Or are there more tools to evaluate players than simple triple slash lines.

Search your feelings I think you know what to be true.

You are using a poor analogy.  Machado has been a slick fielding Third baseman most of his career.  Nelson Cruz has been a poor fielding corner outfielder.  

Beckham has been a mediocre fielding shortstop and Schoop is a mediorce fielding second baseman.  Maybe Schoop is slightly better second baseman than Beckham is a short stop but Shortstop is a harder position so I think they are pretty similar players. 

[Frobby]

19 minutes ago, atomic said:

Beckham has been a mediocre fielding shortstop and Schoop is a mediorce fielding second baseman.  Maybe Schoop is slightly better second baseman than Beckham is a short stop but Shortstop is a harder position so I think they are pretty similar players. 

The great thing is, we will see soon enough what the market thinks.   We won’t have to guess at their relative market value, the market will tell us.   

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I think you and I have very different definitions for the word "identical". It's also not as simple as just projecting out numbers. I'm not even a Schoop fan, but tiosay that Beckham is his equal is an insult. 

Schoop

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	681	2484	322	640	1104	130	2	110	333	98	2	597	7	3	.258	.294	.444	.738	1.22
2013	BAL	AL	5	14	5	4	7	0	0	1	1	1	0	2	0	0	.286	.333	.500	.833	9.00
2014	BAL	AL	137	455	48	95	161	18	0	16	45	13	0	122	2	0	.209	.244	.354	.598	1.36
2015	BAL	AL	86	305	34	85	147	17	0	15	39	9	0	79	2	0	.279	.306	.482	.788	1.13
2016	BAL	AL	162	615	82	164	279	38	1	25	82	21	0	137	1	2	.267	.298	.454	.752	1.23
2017	BAL	AL	160	622	92	182	313	35	0	32	105	35	0	142	1	0	.293	.338	.503	.841	1.06
2018	2 teams	-	131	473	61	110	197	22	1	21	61	19	2	115	1	1	.233	.266	.416	.682	1.30

 

Beckham

Season	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
MLB Career	-	-	384	1310	162	330	556	54	14	48	151	90	0	403	12	9	.252	.304	.424	.728	1.28
2013	TB	AL	5	7	1	3	3	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	.429	.375	.429	.804	4.00
2015	TB	AL	82	203	24	45	87	7	4	9	37	13	0	69	3	1	.222	.274	.429	.702	1.59
2016	TB	AL	64	198	25	49	86	12	5	5	16	14	0	67	2	1	.247	.300	.434	.735	1.07
2017	2 teams	-	137	533	67	148	242	18	5	22	62	36	0	167	6	5	.278	.328	.454	.782	1.32
2018	BAL	AL	96	369	45	85	138	17	0	12	35	27	0	100	1	2	.230	.287	.374	.661	1.16

 

A 10 point differential in OPS is an insult?

[atomic]

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

 The great thing is, we will see soon enough what the market thinks.   We won’t have to guess at their relative market value, the market will tell us.   

I think Schoop will get more money than Beckham but neither will get much.   But I wouldn't consider salary as an indicator of value as Chris Davis got a ton of money and I never saw him as having  much value.

[Aglets]

38 minutes ago, atomic said:

You are using a poor analogy.  Machado has been a slick fielding Third baseman most of his career.  Nelson Cruz has been a poor fielding corner outfielder.  

Beckham has been a mediocre fielding shortstop and Schoop is a mediorce fielding second baseman.  Maybe Schoop is slightly better second baseman than Beckham is a short stop but Shortstop is a harder position so I think they are pretty similar players. 

OK I'm fine with you admitting that Schoop is a better defensive player than Beckham because that is a huge part of the value difference.  Beckham has shown himself to be below average at all 3 defensive infield positions.

[atomic]

5 minutes ago, Aglets said:

OK I'm fine with you admitting that Schoop is a better defensive player than Beckham because that is a huge part of the value difference.  Beckham has shown himself to be below average at all 3 defensive infield positions.

I think if they both played Shortstop next season they would be about the same defensively.  Anyway I would prefer better defensive players in either case. I don't want either on the team.  

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, bpilktree said:

How does Beckham have more trade value.  IS he a former all star with a war season over 4 in the previous year like Schoop?  Schoop had a year and a half left on his contract when we traded him basically at a decent chunk of change it they tendered him which I assume at the time they figured they would.  He brought back a former top 100 prospect that still has high upside, a major league 2nd baseman and a young raw talent with lots of upside.  Beckham had two and a half years and brought back a lottery ticket raw prospect in the lower minors.  They have no where near the same value and the previous trades show that.

Beckham has lower salary, more years of control, can play SS, and did not look like a deer in the headlights with an utterly shattered sense of his humanity when traded. To my eye test, Schoop was already a stretch at 2B and is not a sure thing to be able to hold it down as he ages. If Beckham repeated his 2017 I think you would see a lot of interest.

[Ruzious]

3 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

We just nontendered Beckham, who has much more trade value upside as a complete player who can hit and play middle infield. If we were going to play that game, we could have done it with Beckham. Schoop makes even less sense. As much as Schoop brought to our team during the run, bringing him back just doesn't seem like the direction we are going.

Those assertions you made about trade value and completeness as a player are based on what?  And I wouldn't pay Schoop as much as it would have taken to keep Beckham.  Schoop is nearly 2 years younger than Beckham and did better with the O's last season than Beckham did and was a star for the O's in 2017.  Basically, I think your thinking is wrong on all counts there.  

[Ruzious]

21 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Beckham has lower salary, more years of control, can play SS, and did not look like a deer in the headlights with an utterly shattered sense of his humanity when traded. To my eye test, Schoop was already a stretch at 2B and is not a sure thing to be able to hold it down as he ages. If Beckham repeated his 2017 I think you would see a lot of interest.

When you talk about deer in the headlights, that's what Beckham was at SS last season.  I doubt major league teams now consider he or Schoop as legitimate major league SS's - just as I have no idea what Minnesota was thinking using Schoop at SS.  And I'm saying that as someone who gave Beckham the benefit of the doubt over and over and over since he was with the O's.  At some point, ya gotta realize he doesn't have the instincts/reactions and mentality to play the position well.  He probably should have been made an OFer early in his career.    

[Aristotelian]

47 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

When you talk about deer in the headlights, that's what Beckham was at SS last season.  I doubt major league teams now consider he or Schoop as legitimate major league SS's - just as I have no idea what Minnesota was thinking using Schoop at SS.  And I'm saying that as someone who gave Beckham the benefit of the doubt over and over and over since he was with the O's.  At some point, ya gotta realize he doesn't have the instincts/reactions and mentality to play the position well.  He probably should have been made an OFer early in his career.    

 

55 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

Those assertions you made about trade value and completeness as a player are based on what?  And I wouldn't pay Schoop as much as it would have taken to keep Beckham.  Schoop is nearly 2 years younger than Beckham and did better with the O's last season than Beckham did and was a star for the O's in 2017.  Basically, I think your thinking is wrong on all counts there.  

My only point on completeness is that Beckham has much more SS experience, while Schoop looks stretched at 2B. Beckham could still play 2B or LF if he can't hold down SS, whereas Schoop's only other position would appear to be 1B. Beckham has much more versatility even if he is not as good at any one position as Schoop is at 2B.

I am not in love with Beckham or anything. The larger point is that both are seriously flawed veteran players and neither is a good fit for a rebuilding team.

[wildbillhiccup]

2 hours ago, Ruzious said:

When you talk about deer in the headlights, that's what Beckham was at SS last season.  I doubt major league teams now consider he or Schoop as legitimate major league SS's - just as I have no idea what Minnesota was thinking using Schoop at SS.  And I'm saying that as someone who gave Beckham the benefit of the doubt over and over and over since he was with the O's.  At some point, ya gotta realize he doesn't have the instincts/reactions and mentality to play the position well.  He probably should have been made an OFer early in his career.    

He's either a poor fielding / average hitting infielder or an average fielding / below average hitting outfielder. Neither scenario merits full time play.