Congratulations, Moose!

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The player can refuse the honor if he decides the hat selected for him is disrespectful.

I'm not so sure that's true.  I don't think anyone has ever refused the honor, so I don't think we know.  The Hall might go ahead with the induction, and just not have the player there.  They've inducted countless dead people so it wouldn't be that strange.

23 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

He was the ace the whole time he was here, he was not the ace for the yankees.

He wasn't?  In 2001 Clemens was seen as the ace because he went 20-3 although Mussina led the team in starts, innings, strikeouts, and ERA.

In 2002 he was one win behind David Wells, and 0.25 behind in ERA, but led the team in starts and innings, 10 behind Clemens in Ks.

In 2003 he led a 101-win team in ERA, innings and strikeouts.

In '04 he had something of an off year, but the Yanks didn't have anyone pitching anything like an ace and he was about as productive as any starter on the team.

In '05 it was Randy Johnson.

In '06 he was 3rd on the team in wins, but led them in ERA and (tied) in strikeouts.

He didn't pitch well in '07, Pettitte or Wang was their best starter.

In 2008, his last year, he led the Yanks in wins by six with 20, in ERA by a lot, only pitched four innings and eight Ks fewer than Pettitte. 

Of his eight years in New York I think he was arguably their ace in four or five of them despite pitching on teams with multiple other pitchers of HOF quality.

 

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm not so sure that's true.  I don't think anyone has ever refused the honor, so I don't think we know.  The Hall might go ahead with the induction, and just not have the player there.  They've inducted countless dead people so it wouldn't be that strange.

He wasn't?  In 2001 Clemens was seen as the ace because he went 20-3 although Mussina led the team in starts, innings, strikeouts, and ERA.

In 2002 he was one win behind David Wells, and 0.25 behind in ERA, but led the team in starts and innings, 10 behind Clemens in Ks.

In 2003 he led a 101-win team in ERA, innings and strikeouts.

In '04 he had something of an off year, but the Yanks didn't have anyone pitching anything like an ace and he was about as productive as any starter on the team.

In '05 it was Randy Johnson.

In '06 he was 3rd on the team in wins, but led them in ERA and (tied) in strikeouts.

He didn't pitch well in '07, Pettitte or Wang was their best starter.

In 2008, his last year, he led the Yanks in wins by six with 20, in ERA by a lot, only pitched four innings and eight Ks fewer than Pettitte. 

Of his eight years in New York I think he was arguably their ace in four or five of them despite pitching on teams with multiple other pitchers of HOF quality.

 

You got me.

I thought I had a rebuttal and looked up opening day starters, and Mussina did open up once, in 2004 for the Yankees

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

He was the ace the whole time he was here, he was not the ace for the yankees.

2001 - Led the Yankee starters in ERA (2nd in the AL) and innings, second in wins.   Clemens led the team in wins despite having an ERA that was 0.36 higher.    

2002 - led the team in innings, second in wins (Wells won one more).   ERA just so-so.

2003 - led the team in innings and ERA (8th in the AL), second in wins.   Pettitte, whose ERA was .62 higher, led the team in wins.

2004 - off year, third in innings and wins, not a great ERA.

2005 - second in ERA, second in wins, third in ERA.

2006 - led the starters in ERA (4th in the AL), third in innings and wins

2007 - third in innings and wins, bad ERA.

2008 - led the team in ERA (8th in the AL) and wins, second in IP.

During the time he was in New York, Mussina won the second most games of any pitcher in the majors.

I would not say Mussina was as good in NY as in Baltimore, but he was the Yankees’ most consistent pitcher.    Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pettitte, Wells and Wang all had good years while Moose was there, but he did lead the team in ERA in half his seasons in NY, finishing in the top 8 in the league in each of those.    During his time there, among Yankee starters:

Mussina 1553 IP, 123 wins, 3.88 ERA

Pettitte 962 IP, 78 wins, 4.03 ERA

Clemens 711 IP, 56 wins, 3.94 ERA

Wang 629 IP, 54 wins, 3.79 ERA

Johnson 430 IP, 34 wins, 4.37 ERA

Wells 419 IP, 34 wins, 3.82 ERA

 

[bobmc]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

2001 - Led the Yankee starters in ERA (2nd in the AL) and innings, second in wins.   Clemens led the team in wins despite having an ERA that was 0.36 higher.    

2002 - led the team in innings, second in wins (Wells won one more).   ERA just so-so.

2003 - led the team in innings and ERA (8th in the AL), second in wins.   Pettitte, whose ERA was .62 higher, led the team in wins.

2004 - off year, third in innings and wins, not a great ERA.

2005 - second in ERA, second in wins, third in ERA.

2006 - led the starters in ERA (4th in the AL), third in innings and wins

2007 - third in innings and wins, bad ERA.

2008 - led the team in ERA (8th in the AL) and wins, second in IP.

During the time he was in New York, Mussina won the second most games of any pitcher in the majors.

I would not say Mussina was as good in NY as in Baltimore, but he was the Yankees’ most consistent pitcher.    Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pettitte, Wells and Wang all had good years while Moose was there, but he did lead the team in ERA in half his seasons in NY, finishing in the top 8 in the league in each of those.    During his time there, among Yankee starters:

Mussina 1553 IP, 123 wins, 3.88 ERA

Pettitte 962 IP, 78 wins, 4.03 ERA

Clemens 711 IP, 56 wins, 3.94 ERA

Wang 629 IP, 54 wins, 3.79 ERA

Johnson 430 IP, 34 wins, 4.37 ERA

Wells 419 IP, 34 wins, 3.82 ERA

 

You answered with Markakis-love like zeal!  Kudos!  

[Redskins Rick]

15 minutes ago, Frobby said:

2001 - Led the Yankee starters in ERA (2nd in the AL) and innings, second in wins.   Clemens led the team in wins despite having an ERA that was 0.36 higher.    

2002 - led the team in innings, second in wins (Wells won one more).   ERA just so-so.

2003 - led the team in innings and ERA (8th in the AL), second in wins.   Pettitte, whose ERA was .62 higher, led the team in wins.

2004 - off year, third in innings and wins, not a great ERA.

2005 - second in ERA, second in wins, third in ERA.

2006 - led the starters in ERA (4th in the AL), third in innings and wins

2007 - third in innings and wins, bad ERA.

2008 - led the team in ERA (8th in the AL) and wins, second in IP.

During the time he was in New York, Mussina won the second most games of any pitcher in the majors.

I would not say Mussina was as good in NY as in Baltimore, but he was the Yankees’ most consistent pitcher.    Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pettitte, Wells and Wang all had good years while Moose was there, but he did lead the team in ERA in half his seasons in NY, finishing in the top 8 in the league in each of those.    During his time there, among Yankee starters:

Mussina 1553 IP, 123 wins, 3.88 ERA

Pettitte 962 IP, 78 wins, 4.03 ERA

Clemens 711 IP, 56 wins, 3.94 ERA

Wang 629 IP, 54 wins, 3.79 ERA

Johnson 430 IP, 34 wins, 4.37 ERA

Wells 419 IP, 34 wins, 3.82 ERA

 

You were 100% correct in your statement of the facts, Sgt Friday.

But, I guess, public perception, had Mussina as a starting rotational pitcher. The others were more in the limelight as the face of the SP crew.

At least, thats how it looked to me,

[byrdz]

Quote

Mariano Rivera was elected unanimously to the Baseball Hall of Fame, but it’s safe to say his former Yankees teammate Mike Mussina isn’t as universally loved.

https://nypost.com/2019/01/23/michael-kay-has-some-lingering-beef-mike-mussina/

I don't know all the details but I get the sense that Mussina had the some of the same issues while with the Yankees and he just strikes me as a loner.

So maybe it's fitting for him to go in as neutral.

[Palmoripken]

8 minutes ago, byrdz said:

https://nypost.com/2019/01/23/michael-kay-has-some-lingering-beef-mike-mussina/

I don't know all the details but I get the sense that Mussina had the some of the same issues while with the Yankees and he just strikes me as a loner.

So maybe it's fitting for him to go in as neutral.

The Yankees fans I know liked him but he never struck me as a favorite like Jeter, Rivera, or even others who joined the Yankees mid career like Clemens or Tino Martinez. But David Cone on par with Moose? And Kay I think really discounts that Moose was pretty damn good as a big game pitcher.

[25 Nuggets]

3 hours ago, Palmoripken said:

The Yankees fans I know liked him but he never struck me as a favorite like Jeter, Rivera, or even others who joined the Yankees mid career like Clemens or Tino Martinez. But David Cone on par with Moose? And Kay I think really discounts that Moose was pretty damn good as a big game pitcher.

The article says it's personal with Kay - so, anything he says has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Regarding Cone - he was up and down, missed a lot of time mid-career, but at his best he was just as good as Mussina at his best.  Kay doesn't seem to grasp the consistency/longevity thing when it comes to a HOF career.

(frankly Cone had a better career than many pitchers in the HOF already - he had the same number of years played and about the same career value as Jim Bunning)

[DrungoHazewood]

11 hours ago, 25 Nuggets said:

(frankly Cone had a better career than many pitchers in the HOF already - he had the same number of years played and about the same career value as Jim Bunning)

I think Bunning got a substantial boost from being in Congress for 20-some years.  

In 1994, the strike year, Cone won the Cy Young.  Despite not leading the league in anything.  How often does that happen?  Winning an MVP or Cy Young despite not leading the league in anything?  MVP probably sometimes with great fielders.  I think it's less likely for Cy Young.  I bet more than half of Cy Young winners led the league in wins or winning percentage.

[Palmoripken]

12 hours ago, 25 Nuggets said:

The article says it's personal with Kay - so, anything he says has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Regarding Cone - he was up and down, missed a lot of time mid-career, but at his best he was just as good as Mussina at his best.  Kay doesn't seem to grasp the consistency/longevity thing when it comes to a HOF career.

(frankly Cone had a better career than many pitchers in the HOF already - he had the same number of years played and about the same career value as Jim Bunning)

True, true. Just think his personal beef with Moose just came out bigly. As for Cone, you got no argument from me. I think he was a very good pitcher. Heard we nearly got him back in the mid 90's btw. Moose and him. That would have been a nice 1-2 for sure. And as for Bunning, it's always stumped me he got in. Better than i thought he was but I definitely think being in Congress helped him.

[DrungoHazewood]

38 minutes ago, Palmoripken said:

And as for Bunning, it's always stumped me he got in. Better than i thought he was but I definitely think being in Congress helped him.

Bunning is a reasonably strong candidate.  He won 19 games in '62 and '64-66.  If he'd gotten better run support in four starts across those four years he'd have coasted in.  The writers had him as high as 74.2% on the ballot but he never got those couple of votes to get over the line, and then the Vet's Committee put him in.  Ended up with 60 rWAR.

He was also in the middle of the Phillies/Gene Mauch collapse in '64.  Maybe some of the writers remembered that as him choking.  They were up 6.5 games in the standings on September 17th and were out of first place for good on the 27th after a 10-game losing streak.  In the midst of that Mauch started Bunning on two days rest three times and he gave up six, seven, and six runs.  That was pretty much the end of the long-standing practice of riding your ace hard on short rest in the key games.

[MikeAD]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:51 AM, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think a team should be able to pay a player to wear their cap into the Hall.

I don't think a player should be able to pick a team he played for for two years at the tail end of his career as best representing his tenure in MLB.

I think that the player should have substantial input but that the Hall should have the right to override the player's choice.

The player can refuse the honor if he decides the hat selected for him is disrespectful.

End of the day it’s a museum for a kids game. Who wears what isn’t that important. It’s just a hat. 

[Justinlstn]

No logo, it's official

[Palmoripken]

5 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Bunning is a reasonably strong candidate.  He won 19 games in '62 and '64-66.  If he'd gotten better run support in four starts across those four years he'd have coasted in.  The writers had him as high as 74.2% on the ballot but he never got those couple of votes to get over the line, and then the Vet's Committee put him in.  Ended up with 60 rWAR.

He was also in the middle of the Phillies/Gene Mauch collapse in '64.  Maybe some of the writers remembered that as him choking.  They were up 6.5 games in the standings on September 17th and were out of first place for good on the 27th after a 10-game losing streak.  In the midst of that Mauch started Bunning on two days rest three times and he gave up six, seven, and six runs.  That was pretty much the end of the long-standing practice of riding your ace hard on short rest in the key games.

Fair points. He's definitely not the biggest head scratcher for me. Anyhow, looks like Moose is going in without a logo. I'm fine with that. His choice and it's nice to see someone who had a big part of my childhood favorite O's teams make it with him and Baines in the same year even though Baines is a huge head scratcher.

[DrungoHazewood]

29 minutes ago, Palmoripken said:

Fair points. He's definitely not the biggest head scratcher for me. Anyhow, looks like Moose is going in without a logo. I'm fine with that. His choice and it's nice to see someone who had a big part of my childhood favorite O's teams make it with him and Baines in the same year even though Baines is a huge head scratcher.

I'm very happy for both Mussina and Baines.  And Lee Smith.  I enjoyed watching all of them.  I think the blank cap for Mussina was a good compromise.