Hyde, where you at?

[ShaneDawg85]

8 hours ago, atomic said:

Like I have said before, the way Hyde manages the bullpen makes me appreciate Buck a lot more.

Heck of a lot easier to do when you've got O'Day, Brach,  Britton, and Givens in the primes of their career, plus Andrew Miller thrown in for 2 months.  There's nobody in the pen right now even close to that level, not even Givens himself.

[webbrick2010]

I went to bed after the 8th inning.

I knew there was no way that Givens would hold a one run in the lead in the 9th after seeing how he pitched in the 8th

I knew Hyde would leave him in.

Letting Givens get destroyed when from the first pitch it was clear he didn't have it seems like a bad way to build up his trade value.

And that first pitch, a guy with a 95+ FB comes in and throws a pitiful hanging curve ball as his first pitch.

Same pitch that Torres homered against Cashner on.

[atomic]

14 minutes ago, ShaneDawg85 said:

Heck of a lot easier to do when you've got O'Day, Brach,  Britton, and Givens in the primes of their career, plus Andrew Miller thrown in for 2 months.  There's nobody in the pen right now even close to that level, not even Givens himself.

I am talking about multi innings or other over use.  Bleier didnt pitch more than 30 pitches in a game in 2018 or last half of 2017. So now he is coming back from injury and he pitches him over 30 pitches in back to back games.  And Givens has pitched multiple innings multiple times. 

[interloper]

Oh, relax. 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Well, you brought up a few moments of stupidity.  I feel like there are more.  

If the goal is to get this team trained up and developed, part of that has to be situational awareness and having your players know what to do.  

I think a lot of times guys “know what to do,” but in the heat of the moment just don’t do it.    For example, I can think of several times that Adam Jones made foolish throws to home plate when he had no realistic chance to get a runner, and allowed another runner to advance.     The managers and coaches can drill this stuff into the players all they want, but sometimes players just want to do more than they’re capable of.

I will say we’ve been blessed with some pretty smart and talented players before now.    Markakis virtually never missed a cutoff man or threw to the wrong base.   Hardy almost never made a mental mistake.  Manny and Schoop practically couldn’t overestimate their ability to nab a runner with a great throw; what would be stupid, ill-advised throws for other players were smart plays for them.     

As Clint Eastwood once put it, “a man’s gotta know his limitations.”

[spiritof66]

11 hours ago, Philip said:

What would earl do?

I would call the 25-man together DFA guys, send down guys, call out guys, and reinforce To them that they suck, we know it,”...and you’re only here as long as you suck less than the next guy, and tonight you didn’t so you’re gone!”

That mighty help, but who are these "next guys?" Every team makes mental errors and misplays. The Orioles just seem to be making far more of them than is ordinary, and at crucial times, and they lack the talent to make up for them, especially defensive lapses late in games with their crappy relief pitchers.

I suppose part of that is due to inexperience and the lack of a veteran leader in the IF or in CF. Hardy seemed to talk to the other IFs a lot, and I assumed some of that was to go over what to do under various scenarios that might unfold on the next pitch. When I played baseball and later softball, without crowd noise and with much shorter distances between OFers, the adjoining OFer or cut-off man would scream at an OFer where to throw the ball. It's hard to imagine any of our current IFers or OFers doing that, and I'm not sure I'd want to take direction from Martin or Wilkerson or Villar.

But doesn't some of the fault lie with the manager and coaches? They've had most of these guys since spring training, and if they can't figure out where to throw the ball, or can't hit a cutoff man (or won't try), or can't throw a ball within 25 or 30 feet of where it's supposed to go, that suggests to me that there's been insufficient instruction and coaching. The coaching staff may not be able to fix that by working with the players, but they sure as hell should be out there with them trying. If that's happening, I don't know about it, no matter what Mike Bordick says.

[theocean]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think a lot of times guys “know what to do,” but in the heat of the moment just don’t do it.    For example, I can think of several times that Adam Jones made foolish throws to home plate when he had no realistic chance to get a runner, and allowed another runner to advance.     The managers and coaches can drill this stuff into the players all they want, but sometimes players just want to do more than they’re capable of.

I will say we’ve been blessed with some pretty smart and talented players before now.    Markakis virtually never missed a cutoff man or threw to the wrong base.   Hardy almost never made a mental mistake.  Manny and Schoop practically couldn’t overestimate their ability to nab a runner with a great throw; what would be stupid, ill-advised throws for other players were smart plays for them.     

As Clint Eastwood once put it, “a man’s gotta know his limitations.”

Great post. I think every player "knows what to do" - these guys have been playing baseball since they were kids and know to hit the cutoff man. But, in the heat of the moment, they try to be a superhero or overcompensate when the wheels are falling off during a game. Like in football, players do moronic things all the time. They know what to do, but sometimes mistakes happen when a decision has to be made in a split-second and you're about to be tackled by a 350lbs monster running straight at your head at 100mph.

There's also the talent issue. Vladimir Guerrero swung at ludicrous things and made ill-advised throws all the time. But, most the time it worked out because he's Vladamir freakin' Guerrero. Joey Rickard isn't Vladimir Guerrero.

That being said, this team has been making more stupid mistakes than they were at the beginning of the season. Maybe the losing is catching up to them and they're trying to do too much. In my opinion, it is the manager's job to keep players grounded and have them playing smart baseball over the entirety of a long season.

[HowAboutThat]

24 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

That mighty help, but who are these "next guys?" Every team makes mental errors and misplays. The Orioles just seem to be making far more of them than is ordinary, and at crucial times, and they lack the talent to make up for them, especially defensive lapses late in games with their crappy relief pitchers.

I suppose part of that is due to inexperience and the lack of a veteran leader in the IF or in CF. Hardy seemed to talk to the other IFs a lot, and I assumed some of that was to go over what to do under various scenarios that might unfold on the next pitch. When I played baseball and later softball, without crowd noise and with much shorter distances between OFers, the adjoining OFer or cut-off man would scream at an OFer where to throw the ball. It's hard to imagine any of our current IFers or OFers doing that, and I'm not sure I'd want to take direction from Martin or Wilkerson or Villar.

But doesn't some of the fault lie with the manager and coaches? They've had most of these guys since spring training, and if they can't figure out where to throw the ball, or can't hit a cutoff man (or won't try), or can't throw a ball within 25 or 30 feet of where it's supposed to go, that suggests to me that there's been insufficient instruction and coaching. The coaching staff may not be able to fix that by working with the players, but they sure as hell should be out there with them trying. If that's happening, I don't know about it, no matter what Mike Bordick says.

Coaching is a big part of it, yes, but overall attitude is a bigger part.

In my orchestra, there are often times when the orchestra hates a piece, or a conductor, and we’re just “phoning it in” . We’re not trying to make mistakes, but if we do, it’s no big deal. Then there are times when we love the music or we love the conductor and we just put out so extra effort and the difference in the sound and execution is incredible. But it’s the same group.

I think that’s just a human reaction, and it is to be expected. The Orioles Have a lot of players who are not going anywhere whether they are good or bad, so why bother, and they have a lot of players who are bad who may be trying too hard and making careless mistakes. The dynamic is complicated, but the result is that guys are blaming each other( remember Sucre getting openly angry when someone threw a bad pitch?) and other guys aren’t being called out for sloppy play( “Hyde isn’t yelling at X for playing like crap, why should I bother?”) that’s a totally understandable attitude.

Hyde Isn’t going to blame himself for the team problem, And he’s not going to yell at the coaches.

the players have to be held accountable and that’s not happening.

who to bring up? Anybody. The point is that if a player plays stupid or lazy, he suffers the consequences.

[Frobby]

31 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

That mighty help, but who are these "next guys?" Every team makes mental errors and misplays. The Orioles just seem to be making far more of them than is ordinary, and at crucial times, and they lack the talent to make up for them, especially defensive lapses late in games with their crappy relief pitchers.

I suppose part of that is due to inexperience and the lack of a veteran leader in the IF or in CF. Hardy seemed to talk to the other IFs a lot, and I assumed some of that was to go over what to do under various scenarios that might unfold on the next pitch. When I played baseball and later softball, without crowd noise and with much shorter distances between OFers, the adjoining OFer or cut-off man would scream at an OFer where to throw the ball. It's hard to imagine any of our current IFers or OFers doing that, and I'm not sure I'd want to take direction from Martin or Wilkerson or Villar.

But doesn't some of the fault lie with the manager and coaches? They've had most of these guys since spring training, and if they can't figure out where to throw the ball, or can't hit a cutoff man (or won't try), or can't throw a ball within 25 or 30 feet of where it's supposed to go, that suggests to me that there's been insufficient instruction and coaching. The coaching staff may not be able to fix that by working with the players, but they sure as hell should be out there with them trying. If that's happening, I don't know about it, no matter what Mike Bordick says.

I just want to point out, the Yankees made a couple of blunders in last night’s game too.   Dropped a foul pop up that allowed Mancini to stay at bat and deliver an RBI single.    Also had an OF play where they threw to the wrong base.    

It’s just that they have the talent to compensate for an occasional blunder, but we don’t.   

[spiritof66]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I just want to point out, the Yankees made a couple of blunders in last night’s game too.   Dropped a foul pop up that allowed Mancini to stay at bat and deliver an RBI single.    Also had an OF play where they threw to the wrong base.    

It’s just that they have the talent to compensate for an occasional blunder, but we don’t.   

True. The team the NYYs are putting out there right now is pretty young and inexperienced, and I've seen them make some bad plays -- but not mental lapses as bad as I've seen from the Orioles recently. And with their offensive talent and relief pitching, they have a large margin for error, especially when that offense is up against a lousy bullpen.

[OsEatAlEast]

I kind of think Roberts made too much out of Mancini not helping Severino out. For one he was camped under it. The only time Severino gave any indication that he didn't have it was at the very last second. Also didn't it happen fairly quick for Mancini to get over there?

[Mayor McCheese]

1 minute ago, OsEatAlEast said:

I kind of think Roberts made too much out of Mancini not helping Severino out. For one he was camped under it. The only time Severino gave any indication that he didn't have it was at the very last second. Also didn't it happen fairly quick for Mancini to get over there?

Roberts may have saw more then we have.  Did Mancini even move?  We could not tell.  However, baseball fundamentals....say that a first baseman is to back up the catcher on this play.  Yes Severino camped out on the ball but the ball ended up almost 10 feet (or more) behind him and almost back into play....IMO Roberts was right, Mancini should have been at least somewhere near that play to help out but he was no where to be seen at least from what I saw on the TV. 

We all heard Hyde just brush it off in the post game presser...saying he was off the bag and was no where close to even attempt to make a play...but I am sure this is something that will be discussed behind closed doors. 

[OsEatAlEast]

8 minutes ago, Mayor McCheese said:

Roberts may have saw more then we have.  Did Mancini even move?  We could not tell.  However, baseball fundamentals....say that a first baseman is to back up the catcher on this play.  Yes Severino camped out on the ball but the ball ended up almost 10 feet (or more) behind him and almost back into play....IMO Roberts was right, Mancini should have been at least somewhere near that play to help out but he was no where to be seen at least from what I saw on the TV. 

We all heard Hyde just brush it off in the post game presser...saying he was off the bag and was no where close to even attempt to make a play...but I am sure this is something that will be discussed behind closed doors. 

https://www.mlb.com/video/must-c-yankees-storm-back?t=most-popular

24 seconds in

It is possible he could have got there. I think it would have been close.

[LookinUp]

8 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

For me, it's not the bullpen stuff.  It's easy to 2nd guess bullpen moves especially when they don't work out.  It's the easiest thing for an armchair manager to do.

My big issue from last night guys making stupid mental errors.  Not seeming to know what to do in certain situations.  

Some of us have said we like watching this team....and I do, even though they suck.  Much more interesting than last years squad.

That said, they look like one of the more dumb teams I can remember.  

I think it's different to come into the middle of an inning than to start an inning. I get that they're trying to use Givens during the highest leverage situations, but the multiple inning thing is a challenge for anyone. I'm torn, because I get the leverage play, but would prefer they get that third out in the 8th with another arm and then let Givens start the 9th. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, LookinUp said:

I think it's different to come into the middle of an inning than to start an inning. I get that they're trying to use Givens during the highest leverage situations, but the multiple inning thing is a challenge for anyone. I'm torn, because I get the leverage play, but would prefer they get that third out in the 8th with another arm and then let Givens start the 9th. 

I dunno, as I said for me last night it wasn't about the bullpen stuff.  It's the fact that this team can make some really dumb errors.  Like DSJR last night not making the right throw once but twice.  Is Hyde going to address that?

But since we're here and talking about Givens, if it's too much to ask for him to get ONE OUT in the 8th and then close out the 9th...well, then I don't think he's a great reliever.  He's pretty solid but he's certainly not elite.  I understand constantly being asked to get outs over two innings, that might be taxing.  But a 4 out save?  Not much to ask.  

That said, I think Hyde should have left Armstrong in to get the 3rd out.  He was looking good.