Montanez not playing is a joke

[Sports Guy]

This thread got ugly. My.

Yep...A lot of people being overly sensitive and blowing things out of proportion. That is what the Hangout is all about it seems.

Shame too...gets away from the baseball aspect that is so great on here.

[DREKTUNES]

This thread got ugly. My.

So - going to Hangout Night, huh? You'll have a great time! No, seriously. It's very enjoyable.

And I just ran into JD on the street. What are the odds?

Baseball is nice.

[Sports Guy]

I hope you are pointing fingers at both sides of the discussion, because it certainly applies to both sides (assuming it applies at all).

No question Ted.

[CrimsonTribe]

This thread got ugly. My.

It did indeed. If you're wondering why you don't see me around too much anymore, take this as an example. That and I'm working.

[Lucky Jim]

Yep...A lot of people being overly sensitive and blowing things out of proportion. That is what the Hangout is all about it seems.

Shame too...gets away from the baseball aspect that is so great on here.

Ah. Only in SG's world would the problem reside with the folks who didn't call anyone "clueless morons."

I will say this - it's sometimes easy to jump to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't agree with whatever orthodoxy we ascribe to is somehow inferior. I did it last night, watching the game with my father, talking about Dempsey. In retrospect, I completely sounded like I think he's an idiot. He's not. I don't think he should be manager, and I rarely agree with him, but he's not an idiot. And his baseball bonafides are far greater than mine.

But fans - well, fans are a different story. All it requires is an allegiance to be a fan. And the cost-benefit of all of the added time required to have a nuanced vision of the game is different for individuals. My father doesn't look at statistics the way I do, and he couldn't tell you about the minors (outside of what I tell him), but that doesn't make him a clueless moron.

It makes him someone with a life who derives pleasure from watching each game. Sports fans live in the present. That doesn't say anything about their intelligence, but speaks volume about how they allocate their resources (i.e., they invest their time in the current major league roster).

In the end, we can't really quantify how much this team would be aided going forward by losing veterans and playing kids. We can probably quantify - or come closer to quantifying - how much worse the team would be if we gutted the roster. We also can't really quantify the effect of disrupting the first harmonious clubhouse the O's have had in a long time.

The approach that some are taking on here is pretty typical cost-benefit - there are trade-offs but in the long run the O's will be better. The Orioles, on the other hand, aren't taking that approach.

In fact, the rhetoric of MacPhail makes it very clear that he operates on a kind-of modified precautionary principle.

The precautionary principle is a moral and political principle which states that if an action or policy might cause severe or irreversible harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of a scientific consensus that harm would not ensue, the burden of proof falls on those who would advocate taking the action.

There are strong criticisms to be made against the precautionary principle. Europe utilizes it, and it likely stifles trade. A straight-up cost-benefit approach will take risk into account as a factor of cost. (Kind-of like SG would do with trades.) MacPhail's precautionary principle will put a governor on the volume of activity because he finds value in certain intangibles, not least among them stability. He also puts a great deal of emphasis on avoiding risk. Unless AM is completely sure he's not going to have catastrophic results, he's not going to move. And I imagine his sense of the Orioles clubhouse and what it needs is based on his experience around the game - which is fair. It's not like there's some statistical surrogate he can use which is better. Again, I'm not advocating AM's use of the precautionary principle. But I think it's important to recognize it - he's simply not going to do the things you'd like him to do because of his conservative risk calculation.

Just my two cents.

[Lucky Jim]

I told you months ago to put me on ignore, please do it now.

I say the same points over and over again, because the people arguing opposing views are stating their opinion over and over again...

Nobody in this thread has discredited any of my opinions... but I enjoy the discussion... I don't have to agree with someone, to enjoy discussion about the O's... ultimately I remember that we are all O's fans...

I am superior to most common fans, and again so are 95% of the 6000+ OH members.

Of course it can be both.... yes there is an adjustment to the majors all of those young players will go through... and yes it is better they go through that adjustment in a season where we are in last place in August.... and they can still be better than the current team as they acclimate, because they are that much more talented than the players they would be replacing.

That is your first comment in this thread... and for you to say that isn't flip, or condescending is hypocritical.

I think the problem people are having is the use of the word superior. Let's leave talk of superiority to the Ayn Rand fanatics out there. If some guy told you he was superior to you as a literature fan because he could speak Elvish (or whatever) I doubt you'd agree he was "superior."

[emmett16]

Great nite for baseball. I was hoping to go out there till I saw Schmuck's lineup.Apparently, they brought up an Eastern League triple crown-level hitter to be used only one of our glorious veteran presences needs a rest, but not to get any real opportunity.I cannot believe that, on a last place team this guy isn't good enough, and instead they stick with a bunch of declining .240 hitters simply because they've put in their time. With Jones gone, that lineup puts me to sleep.

I know I will be criticized for my attitude, but I don't care. No Montanez, no mikezpen.

Tell me how it comes out.

Don't go! They won by 8. Your boy played. Stop crying!

[Dr. FLK]

So - going to Hangout Night, huh? You'll have a great time! No, seriously. It's very enjoyable.

And I just ran into JD on the street. What are the odds?

Baseball is nice.

SO OH people exist off of the OH? I've been walking around the street all day asking people "Are you DREKTUNES?"....so far, all that's come of it is a restraining order and a lot of pepper spray.

[DREKTUNES]

SO OH people exist off of the OH? I've been walking around the street all day asking people "Are you DREKTUNES?"....so far, all that's come of it is a restraining order and a lot of pepper spray.

We do indeed. I've even been met before. Well met? Up for debate.

Heck, I'm even actually married to the girl in my profile pic with me.

Mmmm, pepper spray. One shot and I'm south of the border!

[ScottieBaseball]

I don't see where getting someone like Montanez in the lineup is going to destroy the clubhouse chemistry.If that chemistry is so great because the veterans are starting every day, then forget the chemistry.

The O's are a near .500 team, a dramatic contrast to last season. Saying, "Oh, forget about wins this season...we're building for next year!" and dropping a regular or two out of the lineup would almost certainly invoke a few more losses. That's bad for chemistry.

[ChaosLex]

You are just being ridiculously condescending these days.

Pot, meet Kettle.

[amateurfan]

I never wrote that this post wasn't sarcastic (or flip if you prefer). It certainly was extremely sarcastic. It wasn't condescending though. You may want to rethink the definition of that word if you think it was. There is a huge difference between that post and calling people morons if they think this year's results matter.

If you can't see that your words and debating techniques are over the line recently after the comments people have been making, I'm not sure what else to say. I'm going to put you on ignore as you requested and walk away. I think it is a shame that it came to this point though.

Your first post in this thread is condescending. I'm not sure how you can think it isn't. Both of you came off as really arrogant in this thread, and then your arguments warped. It was strange.

[Mashed Potatoes]

I think the problem people are having is the use of the word superior. Let's leave talk of superiority to the Ayn Rand fanatics out there. If some guy told you he was superior to you as a literature fan because he could speak Elvish (or whatever) I doubt you'd agree he was "superior."

The problem here is crstoner and SG are saying "I'm superior to these people," but what's left out of that sentence but I'm pretty sure implied is, "in terms of our understanding of the game of baseball."

I agree with them here. Where I disagree is saying they are superior fans because that assumes a right and wrong rather than a plurality of rights within fandom.

For example, my father doesn't know crap about modern statistics and he gets most of his info from the mainstream media. However, he is a true baseball historian. You could ask him about almost any Oriole in history, give him a specific year, and he will recite that player's average, home runs, and runs batted in that season. It's amazing. He's also spent a lot of his hard earned money on Orioles memorabilia, traveled across the country to see the team, and raised three new Orioles fanatics. Am I a better fan than my dad because I know more about statistics and our minor leaguers? Hell no, he's been an O's fan twice as long as I've been alive.

The moral of the story is:

SG and crstoner are not superior people to 95% of O's fans, and they do not believe that, some people have understandably misinterpreted their words.

SG and crstoner DO believe they are superior fans to 95% of O's fans, they're wrong because fandom is a vast and complex world with a variety of paths each with their own positives and negatives. There aren't rights and wrongs.

SG and crstoner DO believe they (and most of the OH) are superior analysts of the game of baseball in terms of statistics, minor leaguers, roster management, and knowledge of other teams. I agree with them 100%.

You cannot refute any of this because I am always right, I am a superior debate clarifier and analyst to 99% of the world!

[Basketeer]

i'll take the end result of that game. in the end, it's all about the W.

[mikezpen]

This isn't a political board, but you brought up the name. Lucky Jim, most of the delusions of "superiority" lie far to the left of Ayn Rand. believe me.