Montanez not playing is a joke

[wildcard]

Please. The Os do not have a good track record when it comes to using guys in a manner that increases their value. Normally they use guys well beyond their years and we are stuck watching them walk away with little or nothing in return.

If anyone thinks that Payton or Millar are going to net us something other than a wave good bye, Please explain how.

Montanez should be playing more often than not going forward. I hope that happens

I doubt I can get this across to you if you have not picked it up yet but here goes.

This year is about the developing for more then Montanez. There is Guthrie, Olson, Hopefully Penn, Johnson, Bierd, Sarfate. They need a support cast that can field the ball. Payton is in center right now to support the pitchers. Castro is at SS to support the pitchers.

That said if MacPhail could get a decent CFer he would probably trade Payton if he could get a good return. Maybe he can't. Same with Millar. Millar does not DH well and his offensive numbers for a 1B are below average. It would take an injury to a first baseman on the pennant contender for the O's to even have a chance to trade Millar and then he would probably not be the first in line nor would they get anything for him.

[Boy Howdy]

Why? Who cares if we win games based on the shoulders of players who won't be here next year, or part of our next good team?

I do.

Tonight marks 55 Orioles wins so far in 2008, and I've enjoyed all 55 of them. Sorry (nah, not really. too bad for you) some of you are all constipated on a night the Orioles won imagining how much better off we'd be losing with a bunch of guys who might (but probably won't) be part of the Orioles next playoff roster.

Whatever floats your boat, man. I'll take the win.

[glorydays]

I just watched the webgems on ESPN. Guess who was #1? Corey Patterson running/leaping down a sure to be double/triple to save a run from scoring against the Red's young starter Johnny Cueto.

Now Corey Patterson is hitting .193 in 233 at bats for the Reds. And even though they have their future CF on their roster in Bruce and a buttload of prospects in their minor league system - the Reds are choosing to let a guy who has no future on their team to start in CF. Why???

Because (IMO) - like the O's - the Reds want to see their best defense playing - especially up the middle -for their young pitchers. Yes, organizations besides the O's believe it is that important. And the Reds - with their minor league system - would have many more qualified reasons why Corey does not deserve to be playing (and I can imagine their fans are probably pissing and moaning also).

In the past week Payton has made at least 3 amazing catches in CF. And while I would love to see someone else out there - a strong defense is going to be helpful in developing our young pitching. JP will be gone soon enough and whether he is a type a, b or c free agent - while he is here he is proving helpful with his glove.

[TheOtherRipken]

Taking Montanez out of AA without offering him anything short of a starting position is an absolute crime. How can you gain perspective on him as a player without consistent at bats?

I think the Payton situation is a tough one. Payton is already upset about not getting playing time, if we let Montanez take his spot he'd be livid. Still I think based on the state of the organization we have to do that at this point.

[Boy Howdy]

Hooray Millar hit 2 homers... fantastic, will that make you feel better in October when he is not an Oriole... ?

Who is more likely to help the Orioles in 2009... Kevin Millar, or Nolan Reimold?

Jay Payton or Montanez?

You can say you might doubt the impact of either Reimold, or Montanez... and thats fine..... but since they can be here next year, and Millar and Payton can not... it is absolutely pointless for Millar and Payton get playing time ahead of them.

Ahem, as Dave Trembley told us so often this spring: "This is 2008".

I'm still rooting for Millar, Payton, etc...

You can play your "more likely" card all you want. Since watching the lineup Trembley's writing out bothers you so much, I suggest using the time to read through back issues of Baseball America or your publication of choice. If you do that, you'll find that you could assemble all the "most likely" to this that and the others that you want, and two or three years down the road fates will have switched, flipped and been turned around so much that you won't know what hit you.

Don't believe me? Go back and look at the history of the June draft for kicks. Baseball is an unpredictable game played by human beings. That's why some of us enjoy actual games instead of fantasy fallacies where Luis Montanez and Torii Hunter have the same defensive value to a ballclub.

Tonight was a great night for Orioles fans. If you aren't feeling it, that's on you.

[LookitsPuck]

If Kevin Millar ends up with 23 HR's and 85 RBI's (as he is projected), I think that he would be extremely close to reaching "Type A" status...(Did he really hit another as I'm writing...) and a definite Type B. Jay Payton just missed being Type B and is projected to put up the same HR's and RBI's as last year (he was only the 2nd player behind the final B spot). Those two categories seem to weigh heavily on the final ranking. I think both categories are overrated personally, but I don't make the formula.

Whether the two would accept or decline arbitration I don't know. Just something to keep in mind.

There is not a chance in hell that Millar is a Type A free agent.

There is less than a chance in hell that Payton is a Type B free agent.

[wildcard]

Are you aware the O's can extend Wieters at anytime during his arbitration years, and make it meaningless that they started his arbitration clock?

For an exact $15M if he does not decide he wants to go home to Altanta. He does have a choice as a free agent you know.

Are you aware that Ramon has no trade value regardless of what he does? The O's attempted to move Ramon at the 7/31 deadline, offering to pay large amounts of his contract... with no takers, with minimal interest....

The O's will be forced to eat 75% of his 2009 contract to move him... and they will get a garbage prospect back.... give me 2 months of Wieters in the bigs to end 2008, so he can be that much more ready to help you in 2009.

I am glad you are not doing the negotiation. MacPhail will probably be able to get a major league starter or SS or 3B or 1B for him that is carrying an equally high salary. The better Ramon plays for the rest of 2008 the better starter or player he is likely to get.

Are you aware that Scott has 54 ab's as a DH, so it is probably a bit premature to say he can not hit as a DH?

I'll give you that one, but follow the trend. It may well continue. It often does. DHing is very hard for most players.

Are you aware that Payton will not be part of the 2009 team, is a mediocre OF in his own right, has a 654 OPS overall... a 523 OPS against RHP?

I repeat. Payton is there to support the pitchers in CF. If you are watching the games he will notice that he is playing well in the field this year. Don't go by what you remember him to do on defense last year. He was hurt.

No he can not, does not, hit righthanded pitching well. But the O's have noone better to play CF. From what I have read and the little I have seen of Montanez, he is not a major league CF.

Are you aware that some want Montanez to be our 4th OF in 2009? Are you aware that if he can not play some CF in reserve, that is use to the O's is limited?

Montanez probably can play the corners OF positions ok. He may not be able to play a major league CF. Even as a backup. Montanez may turn out to get alot more at bats at DH if Millar does get traded and Huff shifts to 1B. Eddie Murray did it for a year. Montanez did hit pretty well as DH at Norfolk in limited at bats.

It will be interesting to see how the whole Scott/Montanez thing plays out this winter. One could be traded, who knows.

Are you aware that Castro is 36 years old, came into tonight with a 599 lifetime OPS in over 2300 Major league at-bats.. making him probably the worst player in the Major leagues?

Are you aware he is there for defense and that the O's have an offense that can score between 5-10 run almost ever night even with him in the lineup. What the O's need to do is cut down on the number of runs scored against them and Castro's defense helps them do that.

At 36, he is not a not term starter. So that is something the MacPhail has to fix over the winter.

Are you aware that the 3 man bench the O's have used for weeks, has put undue strain on the regulars, and limited their flexibility in late innings?

And how exactly is this undue stain showing up. It is surely not showing up in their offense. Their defense looks very good with Castro at SS. They does miss Jones in CF, but I don't think fouling a ball off your foot qualifies as undue strain. A break, yes. Undue stain, no.

The only reason the O's are going with a 3 man bench is because the starters are not going deep in the game. What does that have to do with this discussion?

Giving regular time to Millar, Payton, Hernandez, Castro, FCabrera, Castillo, Waters, Cormier accomplishes nothing..... MacPhail and Trembley have done a lot of things right... but their use of the roster, and maximizing the benefits of time have been disgusting.

I will say it again, but you don't want to hear is so it is probably for nothing. Castro and Payton are in the games to support the pitchers with better defense. That is the part of the O's game that need improvement pitching and defense. Young pitchers like Guthrie, Olson, Penn, Johnson and Bierd. Guys that you want to see do well. So Castro and Payton are helping the O's achieve the goal you want. Developing the young pitchers.

Hernandez is raising his trade value by playing. He has hit darn well since June 1st.

Waters so far has out pitching Liz. Liz is not ready for the majors. If you could not see that, shame on you. All he was doing was wearing out the pen. Liz's time will come. It's not here yet. Don't rush him.

[J.D.]

Hooray Millar hit 2 homers... fantastic, will that make you feel better in October when he is not an Oriole... ?

Who is more likely to help the Orioles in 2009... Kevin Millar, or Nolan Reimold?

Jay Payton or Montanez?

You can say you might doubt the impact of either Reimold, or Montanez... and thats fine..... but since they can be here next year, and Millar and Payton will not... it is absolutely pointless for Millar and Payton get playing time ahead of them.

I'd like the O's to win 81 games this year also... and the team I would like to see, would have a better chance of accomplishing that... because they are far more talented..... but even if I believed the current team was 'better', it would still be worthwhile getting younger from within.... because those are players you will be using as building blocks going forward...

Playing games in another losing season with so much deadwood on the roster is a joke.

That's right. I keep forgetting that winning baseball games doesn't mean much.

The team you would like to see do NOT have a better chance of accomplishing that because most of them have never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever seen Major League pitching.

But apparently you can just come right up and hit in the Majors. I keep forgetting.

If they're not going to be a part of the team next year, let them play out the string and see what THIS team can do right now. I have a feeling you'll be seeing Reimold in September and Wieters next year anyway. So just chill out.

Great call not going to the game tonight, mike. I had an awesome time, though. It was nice to see us handle a team that usually gives us a hard time, and to see all of our dead weight pitching in. OH! I even got to see Montanez tonight. In person. I bet I'll see him tomorrow, too.

[J.D.]

Winning games from efforts of players who won’t help you tomorrow, is meaningless.

What I love about your arguments is you unintentionally always make the point for me.

You just stated that I can’t expect the team I want to have a better chance of success, because I would be relying on the efforts of players who have not experienced the bigs.

Your obvious point being that the bigs is an adjustment…. Of course the Majors are an adjustment…. So why would you spend the rest of 2008 giving playing time to the players that will definitively not be part of your roster going forward, vs the players who might …. ???

You take advantage of being on a losing team with no expectations, and you give them as much playing time as possible… so they are that much better prepared to help you going forward…

And yes, I do think we would have a better chance of achieving a 500 record with the team I want vs the team currently comprised.

I don't think you tank this season and bench every major leaguer in order to give guys in AA playing time. You think that these wins are meaningless. They're not. There were 33,000 people in a pretty loud stadium tonight, spending money and giving the Orioles revenue. I don't think it was a meaningless win to them. It certainly wasn't to me.

You're wrong about bringing up minor leaguers who have never seen major league pitching having a better chance of achieving a .500 record. That's... well, there's not much I can say about it. If you watched the game tonight, you know that a lot of the guys you're just clamoring to bench had major contributions tonight. And have helped keep the offense pretty darn stout for a few months now. So yes, benching those guys and giving the minor league guys guarantees us a pretty down stretch. But you don't care, because winning baseball games apparently doesn't matter to you.

It's pretty clear you also don't care about clubhouse chemistry. At all. These guys have played their tails off. They've made this year pretty exciting. You don't just say "Hey, thanks! Now go sit on the bench. We're playing some guy who hasn't earned it yet." Do you honestly think that has no effect on the guys in the clubhouse? Do you think that the veterans who WILL be there next year might be a little irritated that the fact that their friends, guys that they respect, guys that have given a lot to this team over this season and in seasons past, just get sat down for kids who haven't paid their dues?

Seriously, your theory works great in theory. But in real life, where people and emotions are involved, your theory just makes athletes angry.

[glorydays]

FYI... Just found this...

(Baltimore) MLB just announced they are rescinding the 1970 World Series championship from the Baltimore Orioles. They said that a new ruling that qualify wins as being wins only if prospects are playing in the place of vets thus disqualifies the O's because they had an all defense/no hit shortstop named Mark Belanger playing short stop that year instead of signing a better hitting shortstop the year before - which some blame for losing the 1969 World Series.

New rules say that all minor league players who have any talent and can move from one infield position to another with ease should be forced to play for the big league club. In this case, 21 year old second baseman Bobby Grich should have been playing shortstop for the O's in 1970. Even though he hit only .211 in limited action for the Birds that year, the O's would have retained their World Champion status if he played shortstop for them that year.

Baltimore is appealing this decision. However, MLB is using as evidence fans on the team's own message boards who favor this ruling as evidence against them.

[glorydays]

As I just said in the other thread, it seems to me that the O’s would be appealing to a much larger audience if they said come look at the players that can actually be part of the team going forward.

I would go to a number of games down the stretch to the see the roster I want to see… I won’t think of going to another game to see this current roster.

Asking a last-place team, that says they are rebuilding, to get younger and more talented from existing internal options should not be that much to ask of the organization.

I am not asking the O’s to tank the rest of the season… I am asking them to get younger, and more talented from within… the team I want is a better team then the team they are fielding…. But even if the team I wanted, lost more games than the current team… they would still be accomplishing more.

I am asking the O’s to bench Millar and Hernandez…. Get rid of Walker, Payton, Castro… get rid of Cherry, Cormier, Castillo, F.Cabrera, Waters… and bring up Wieters, Reimold, Penn, Fahey, Bergesen, Liz, and Hernandez.

This would give us a team of:

Roberts 2nd

Markakis RF

Huff 1st

Scott DH

Weiters C

Mora 3rd

Reimold LF

Montanez CF

Cintron SS

Quiroz, Millar, Fahey, Hernandez

Guthrie, Cabrera, Olson, Bergesen, Liz

Sherrill

Johnson

Bierd

Sarfate

Riley

Hernandez

Penn

I do think this team has played hard all year…. And I do respect the efforts of a good team player like Millar…. But ultimately, at this point of the year… it does not matter… he will not be back… the team is in last-place… giving time to him is a waste…

When you tell the lockerroom that Wieters is going to be the 2009 everyday catcher, there is not 1 player in the lockerroom, who would not rather see Hernandez playing everyday to end 2008.

When you tell the lockeroom that Reimold is going to start everyday in 2009 in LF or DH… and that Payton will not be back… there is not a player that would say it makes more sense for Payton to continue to play.

The players that are returning next year, would like to see the players they are going to be playing with going forward…. What is the point of Millar and clubhouse chemistry, if he is not part of the 2009 equation

I'm sorry but this is not only your opinion but it is just false. Brian Roberts is just one example of a player who has given very open hints that his future with this ballclub rests with the team winning. I believe he would be very upset if they took Millar out of the lineup right now. You have to remember - he has never been on a winning Oriole team. He would be devastated if they did what you are asking them to do...

[J.D.]

As I just said in the other thread, it seems to me that the O’s would be appealing to a much larger audience if they said come look at the players that can actually be part of the team going forward.

I would go to a number of games down the stretch to the see the roster I want to see… I won’t think of going to another game to see this current roster.

Asking a last-place team, that says they are rebuilding, to get younger and more talented from existing internal options should not be that much to ask of the organization.

I am not asking the O’s to tank the rest of the season… I am asking them to get younger, and more talented from within… the team I want is a better team then the team they are fielding…. But even if the team I wanted, lost more games than the current team… they would still be accomplishing more.

I am asking the O’s to bench Millar and Hernandez…. Get rid of Walker, Payton, Castro… get rid of Cherry, Cormier, Castillo, F.Cabrera, Waters… and bring up Wieters, Reimold, Penn, Fahey, Bergesen, Liz, and Hernandez.

This would give us a team of:

Roberts 2nd

Markakis RF

Huff 1st

Scott DH

Weiters C

Mora 3rd

Reimold LF

Montanez CF

Cintron SS

Quiroz, Millar, Fahey, Hernandez

Guthrie, Cabrera, Olson, Bergesen, Liz

Sherrill

Johnson

Bierd

Sarfate

Riley

Hernandez

Penn

I do think this team has played hard all year…. And I do respect the efforts of a good team player like Millar…. But ultimately, at this point of the year… it does not matter… he will not be back… the team is in last-place… giving time to him is a waste…

When you tell the lockerroom that Wieters is going to be the 2009 everyday catcher, there is not 1 player in the lockerroom, who would not rather see Hernandez playing everyday to end 2008.

When you tell the lockeroom that Reimold is going to start everyday in 2009 in LF or DH… and that Payton will not be back… there is not a player that would say it makes more sense for Payton to continue to play.

The players that are returning next year, would like to see the players they are going to be playing with going forward…. What is the point of Millar and clubhouse chemistry, if he is not part of the 2009 equation?

"Hey Kevin, thanks for your contribution this year, but you're not coming back next year. So we're not playing you anymore."

Yeah. That goes over real well.

If you can't see that then fine. Whatever. I'm glad you're not managing. Because I'm betting you'd have a lot of guys not playing very hard for you, knowing that the second they've reached a certain age or production level, whatever they've done for you to that point just doesn't matter. They can be replaced. That's a pretty good way to get players to not want to play for you.

You're also terribly out of touch with the common fan. Attendance has raised because the team has played incredibly hard. You don't reward that effort by benching components of that team. YOU might come because the young guys are playing in favor of the veterans, but ultimately people come because they want a competitive, exciting product on the field. You're proposing giving significant playing time to players that have never had Major League experience. I'd like to see some of the young guys in September, but not at the expense of veterans who have played their tails off for the Orioles this year. If they're not going to be here next year anyway, then let the young guys you want to come up WIN (you know... earn their spot like Markakis did) their spot in spring training and be a part of the team next year.

There is absolutely NO harm in keeping this team together right now. Just because you think that their wins are meaningless doesn't mean that to most fans and to the organization, those wins are meaningless.

[J.D.]

I'm sorry but this is not only your opinion but it is just false. Brian Roberts is just one example of a player who has given very open hints that his future with this ballclub rests with the team winning. I believe he would be very upset if they took Millar out of the lineup right now. You have to remember - he has never been on a winning Oriole team. He would be devastated if they did what you are asking them to do...

It's really easy to forget sometimes that these guys are friends, that these people care about this sort of thing. But they do. And I'm betting it's going to rub a lot of people the wrong way if you start benching vets.

There's a big difference between playing armchair manager and managing personalities.

[glorydays]

lol.. that was kind of funny... but just proves you fail to grasp the issue at-hand.

This is not '66 or '70 or '83... this is a team that is in last-place in August, that has had 10 straight losing seasons...

An organization that has said they are committed to rebuilding... if you are rebuilding, you play as many games as possible with the pieces that can help you going forward...

And you are having a difficult time of grasping your opinion and fact... You would like the organization to go younger and because of that fans are going to come flocking to the ballyard? You think the team would throw a party by getting rid of the players you mentioned? You think the young players will play better than the current team? You think that the young pitchers don't win real games because the vets that are playing behind them are making plays to help them win? You don't think that wins = wins!?!?

How can anyone with any logic grasp your conclusions?

[J.D.]

Roberts is not on a winning team right now, he is on another last place team.

If you want him to comeback, it might help for him to be able to look around the lockerroom, and see the talent that surrounds him... that he can move forward with.

He would be devistated for Millar to sit on the bench... Millar who is not going to be back in 2009? That is just illogical.

To think that people in the clubhouse would be perfectly happy with a guy like Millar being benched after he's given a lot to this club this year and in years past is completely asinine. Millar has earned his spot on this ball club. There's a difference between bringing him back next year and benching him this year.