Mussina and Palmer

[Maverick2143]

No, a four pitch walk requires no skill from the hitter whereas a 20 pitch walk obviously does. A bloop hit and a line drive out both require about the same general skill level, although in this case the line drive probably shows better skill, just worse results.

Well I'm out.......... I lost enough brain cells this weekend to Sam Adams Light. I'm not going to waste any more trying to argue with Tony Clifton here...

[square634]

Yes, it takes more skill to hit a line drive, generally but it is all relative to the pitcher one is facing. Sometimes hitting a line drive is easy off a bad pitcher and hitting a bloop off a good pitcher is much harder.

And drawing a walk is easier against some pitchers (Daniel Cabrera) than against others (Greg Maddux). What's your point?

[Flip217]

No, a four pitch walk requires no skill from the hitter whereas a 20 pitch walk obviously does. A bloop hit and a line drive out both require about the same general skill level, although in this case the line drive probably shows better skill, just worse results.

I've given up trying to convince the man, so I'm resorting to responding in haiku:

Many Baseball Games

Old#5Fan

Has watched many baseball games

But still gets things wrong.

30-some Years

For thirty-some years

He has watched men play the game.

What can you tell him?

Without Stats

Walks, bunts, steals, line drives,

These things he knows without stats.

And get off his lawn!

[Old#5fan]

But if Mother Teresa were hitting, then the pitcher wouldn't use his best stuff, and would just throw it 60 miles per hour down the middle. And even if the pitcher couldn't do that, the number of times this would happen is not only negligible but would balance out between hitters over time (just like bloop singles). So if every hitter gets an equal number of walks this way, then how does that invalidate OBP, especially when comparing between hitters?

Because there is no way of knowing how many wild pitchers each hitter has faced. So you cannot assume every hitter gets an equal number of walks that way. How can you? That is not even logical. Some could by mere luck face a higher number of wild pitchers. Again, this is why I like BA because it takes that aspect totally out of it. That is why they give Batting Titles not OBP Titles. Baseball tradition has much more wisdom than this board does. Thank heaven for that!

[square634]

[/b][/i]

Because there is no way of knowing how many wild pitchers each hitter has faced. So you cannot assume every hitter gets an equal number of walks that way. How can you? That is not even logical. Some could by mere luck face a higher number of wild pitchers. Again, this is why I like BA because it takes that aspect totally out of it. That is why they give Batting Titles not OBP Titles. Baseball tradition has much more wisdom than this board does. Thank heaven for that!

And some hitters by mere luck could get more bloop hits in a given year. Or, better yet, some hitters by mere luck could face worse pitchers in a given year! In one year, maybe the guy who won the batting title faced Russ Ortiz 10 times while the second place player faced Johan Santana 10 times. Batting average wouldn't show you the difference. That doesn't make batting average completely useless; it is simply a tool, just like OBP, to be analyzed contextually.

[Maverick2143]

[/b][/i]

Because there is no way of knowing how many wild pitchers each hitter has faced. So you cannot assume every hitter gets an equal number of walks that way. How can you? That is not even logical. Some could by mere luck face a higher number of wild pitchers. Again, this is why I like BA because it takes that aspect totally out of it. That is why they give Batting Titles not OBP Titles. Baseball tradition has much more wisdom than this board does. Thank heaven for that!

Still waiting on this.....

Then explain how players on the same team facing the same pitchers have drastically different walk totals over 162 games.

Such as Grady Sizemore has 94 BB's and the next closest on the Indians is Ryan Garko at 43. Same team, facing the same pitching yet, Sizemore has 51 more BB's than any of his teammates.

I must be a sadist

[Enjoy Terror]

I just stepped in this thread for the first time:

Without having read much prior to the 16th page, are we really arguing that OBP is a flawed statistic because the amount of wild pitchers all batters face is not a constant?

[Maverick2143]

I just stepped in this thread for the first time:

Without having read much prior to the 16th page, are we really arguing that OBP is a flawed statistic because the amount of wild pitchers all batters face is not a constant?

Yeah thats pretty much where we're at

Kinda sad isn't it

[Old#5fan]

Still waiting on this.....

I must be a sadist

I have a theory on that but it is just that - a theory, and I am not sure you want to hear it.

[Maverick2143]

I have a theory on that but it is just that - a theory, and I am not sure you want to hear it.

At this point there is nothing you could say that would shock me. So have it....

[Sports Guy]

And if you cannot see that hitting to get on base (a positive athletic action by a batter) as opposed to walking or getting hit by a pitch to get on base ( a negative pitching action) generally requires more skill than I suggest you like I suspect more than a fair share of others overly enamored with stats have never played organized competitive baseball.

Who cares what has more skill?

The bottom line is to get on base...Those that get on base, score a lot of runs and help their teams more than those players who don't get on base.

If you don't agree with that, then you really have no concept with how baseball works.

[Old#5fan]

At this point there is nothing you could say that would shock me. So have it....

Okay. My theory is that most leadoff hitters on any team will draw more walks generally than the rest of their teammates for two reasons:

1. They are the first hitter a starting pitcher faces and frequently they struggle with control in the first inning moreso than any other.

2. The main goal of a leadoff man is to get on base. Much moreso than any other spot in the lineup. Ergo, why he is called "The Tablesetter."

These two factors alone will explain why they generally draw more walks. It is their job to do so - get on base any way possible.

[Old#5fan]

Who cares what has more skill?

The bottom line is to get on base...Those that get on base, score a lot of runs and help their teams more than those players who don't get on base.

If you don't agree with that, then you really have no concept with how baseball works.

What you say is extremely generic. I would agree only that the leadoff hitter's primary goal is to get on base. I would tend to think the second hitter's goal is to either bring him in or move him over, and the three and four hitters drive them in. That is how I was taught the game of base ball works, in that each spot in the lineup has certain specific roles tailored to them.

Merely stating the job of every hitter is to get on base is kind of like saying the goal of every typist is to never make a typo. It may be a goal but rather an unrealistic one and too broad based to be attained. For everyone always to get on base is simply impractical. So the goal should be more centered on winning each inning and overall the game. Frequently, making an out by advancing the runner becomes the goal or hitting a sac fly. Its not always about getting on base. That is way, way too much of an oversimplification of a sport that has much more strategy involved.

I mean if you were explaining the game to a T-Baller what you say would certainly be appropriate. However, when talking about major league baseball it is downright trite to the Nth degree.

[Maverick2143]

Okay. My theory is that most leadoff hitters on any team will draw more walks generally than the rest of their teammates for two reasons:

1. They are the first hitter a starting pitcher faces and frequently they struggle with control in the first inning moreso than any other.

2. The main goal of a leadoff man is to get on base. Much moreso than any other spot in the lineup. Ergo, why he is called "The Tablesetter."

These two factors alone will explain why they generally draw more walks. It is their job to do so - get on base any way possible.

1. Sizemore has 17 BB's in 145 PA in the first inning. So he has roughly 18% of his BB's in 21% of his PA. Seems to me that that is a pretty even distribition. Although I would loosely agree with your general thought.

2. So you would say that players like Sizemore are better at drawing walks than other players? IE. It is a skill that they posses ?

[Old#5fan]

1. Sizemore has 17 BB's in 145 PA in the first inning. So he has roughly 18% of his BB's in 21% of his PA. Seems to me that that is a pretty even distribition. Although I would loosely agree with your general thought.

2. So you would say that players like Sizemore are better at drawing walks than other players? IE. It is a skill that they posses ?

I would say they focus more on attaining a walk, than say the third or fourth hitters in a lineup who focus more on driving the runners in on base or themselves in. Again, it goes back to the specific roles normally assigned to different spots in the lineup. The leadoff hitter in general has the primary focus of getting on base anyway he can, bunt, HBP, walk, or regular hits. I would agree that Sizemore had a high skill level of getting on base. However, I also think that if they moved him to third in the lineup his walks would probably go down and his power and rbi's would go up as he would adjust to a different role. Again, this is just my own theory though. I cannot prove it.