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Mussina and Palmer

Frobby

By Frobby
in Orioles Talk

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Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

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Bumpity bump bump.

Mussina won his 20th game today. Looks like someone has some 'splainin to do. ;)

They must have gotten him a lot of runs so it was impossible to choke it away. Either way, he finally has the monkey off his back and now will be HOF eligible, sorry to say as I cannot stand the guy.

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Sports Guy Hangout Grand Counsel

Sports Guy

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They must have gotten him a lot of runs so it was impossible to choke it away. Either way, he finally has the monkey off his back and now will be HOF eligible, sorry to say as I cannot stand the guy.

Do you think Moose is more HOF eligilble today than he was yesterday? Just because he won 20 games?

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Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

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Do you think Moose is more HOF eligilble today than he was yesterday? Just because he won 20 games?

Absolutely. Short of winning 300 games no way I think he would have made it in. Now he will, no matter if he retires after this season. He got the giant monkey off his back finally. I must give credit where it is due.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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Absolutely. Short of winning 300 games no way I think he would have made it in. Now he will, no matter if he retires after this season. He got the giant monkey off his back finally. I must give credit where it is due.

What a world you must live in, where one start is the difference between a complete joke of a career, and a HOF lock. If you actually exist, I can't even begin to comprehend what your universe is like.

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TommyD4207 Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

TommyD4207

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What a world you must live in, where one start is the difference between a complete joke of a career, and a HOF lock. If you actually exist, I can't even begin to comprehend what your universe is like.

Some would say that a particular start on January 20, 1985 was very impactful on Dan Marino's career.

Some would say that a particular start on February 4, 2007 was very impactful on Peyton Manning's career.

To say it's the difference between an utter farce of a career and being a first ballot Hall of Famer is foolish, but to say that one start cannot be impactful on one's career could also be viewed as silly.

For the record, I haven't read the entire thread, but did Old#5Fan ever say that Mussina's career was a "complete joke" prior to winning 20 games?

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Old#5fan Hangout Grand Counsel

Old#5fan

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What a world you must live in, where one start is the difference between a complete joke of a career, and a HOF lock. If you actually exist, I can't even begin to comprehend what your universe is like.

But it is not just one start and win. It was the elusive 20 game winning season which unless you have been playing Rip Van Winkle since the HOF began would know beyond any certainty is a common denominator shared by all present HOF starting pitchers. It was one key item missing from Mussina's credentials and you are acting like it is no big deal. It is a big deal when he didn't have it and it is a bigger deal that he has it now, as I think he needed it badly to help show he is deserving. Otherwise it is a very good argument along with no Cy Youngs, no - No hitters, and no real dominance shown. He desparately needed to win 20 at least once IMO to have a shot at entering the HOF, his only other shot was the 300 win achievement.

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Sports Guy Hangout Grand Counsel

Sports Guy

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But it is not just one start and win. It was the elusive 20 game winning season which unless you have been playing Rip Van Winkle since the HOF began would know beyond any certainty is a common denominator shared by all present HOF starting pitchers. It was one key item missing from Mussina's credentials and you are acting like it is no big deal. It is a big deal when he didn't have it and it is a bigger deal that he has it now, as I think he needed it badly to help show he is deserving. Otherwise it is a very good argument along with no Cy Youngs, no - No hitters, and no real dominance shown.

You actually may be right here.

The writers who vote on the Hall could very well have needed that.

The idea that the idea of that could be true is ridiculous. It is a meaningless number, especially in the era of 5 man rotations.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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But it is not just one start and win. It was the elusive 20 game winning season which unless you have been playing Rip Van Winkle since the HOF began would know beyond any certainty is a common denominator shared by all present HOF starting pitchers. It was one key item missing from Mussina's credentials and you are acting like it is no big deal. It is a big deal when he didn't have it and it is a bigger deal that he has it now, as I think he needed it badly to help show he is deserving. Otherwise it is a very good argument along with no Cy Youngs, no - No hitters, and no real dominance shown. He desparately needed to win 20 at least once IMO to have a shot at entering the HOF, his only other shot was the 300 win achievement.

Here's the point that's eluded you: the standards for pitchers have been constantly changing since day one of professional baseball in the 1860s. There has been a constant decline in the number of innings and number of wins by starters, driven by more logical usage patterns and other factors unrelated to the quality of the individual pitchers.

The Hall of Fame has always been well behind this trend, often holding pitchers to ridiculous standards that hadn't been in effect for generations. But eventually they catch up.

It used to be that most, if not all, HOF starters had 30-win seasons. There was a time when the best pitchers threw 60 or 70 complete games a year and a good starter would win 40-60 games. Eventually the Hall of Fame will realize that winning 20 today is the equivalent of winning 40 in 1910, or winning 25 in 1980. Theoretically possible, but damned unlikely for even the best pitchers, and dependent on all kinds of things that aren't particularly well related to how well a pitcher had pitched.

By 2020 or 2030 there will be several starters in the Hall who never had a 20-win season. The only thing that could stop that (and I'm not saying this is impossible) would be a reversal of 130+ year trends of decreasing starter workload as a percentage of team innings.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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They must have gotten him a lot of runs so it was impossible to choke it away.

Mussina won his last three starts in order to win 20 games, allowing 1 run in 17 innings pitched. So much for choking.

By the way, the last time Mussina had 19 wins, he left with the lead in his last two starts only to have the bullpen blow the save. So much for choking that time.

The other time he won 19, which was in a strike-shortened season that deprived him of 3-4 starts, he won his last three starts of the year, pitching a complete game in each of them, to even reach 19. So much for choking that time.

Congrats Moose on finally having a 20-win season. By the way, finishing 5th in the league in ERA at age 39 isn't too shabby, either.

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