Why "No DH" Sucks (last night)

[Philip]

1 hour ago, scOtt said:

I'd rather see Chris Davis bat than a pitcher.

Not kidding.

I would rather see a pitcher hit than Chris Davis

Not kidding.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

People that like watching pitchers hit get their minds blown when you explain that there's just as much strategy involved with a DH.  

Not only that, but there are many other alternate DH implementations that would absolutely tilt the strategy balance towards DH leagues.  Like home manager choice.  Or the double hook DH, where the DH is tied to the starter, pull the starting pitcher and lose the DH. 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

The idea that you get excited when your pitcher actually gets a hit tells me everything I need to know

It's like winning the lottery.  You think all is lost, then the unthinkable happens.  I also got excited when the ball got lodged under something in the outfield and while everyone was arguing Prince Fielder got an inside the park homer.  Similar frequency of occurrence.

[DrungoHazewood]

42 minutes ago, jamalshw said:

This one is borderline for me. Which pitcher are we talking about? I think I'd rather see Bumgarner, Carpenter, or Greinke hit. I'd rather watch Colon hit for the entertainment value, but compared to your run of the mill, everyday pitcher, it's probably a slight edge to Davis and I'd rather not watch Davis hit ever again so I guess that says something about how I feel about pitchers hitting. 

Personally, though, I would like to be able to designated the pitcher as the DH (and thus being two positions rather than forgoing the DH to allow the P to hit). It's a rare use case, but wouldn't mind enabling the Ohtani (and any other player that is two-way...if any exist ever again) to do both in a game but not hindering the team for doing it by making relievers hit since a DH is waved. This way Ohtani is the P and the DH, when he's removed from the game as a P, he can still hit (or another player can come in as the DH without losing the DH spot). 

Chris Davis' worst full season he OPS+'d 49, OPS'd .539.

In 2019 MLB pitchers OPS'd .322, with a -13 OPS+.  They struck out 44% of PAs.

Bumgarner's career OPS+ is 46.  Greinke does have a 60/.600 so he'd be okay if he was a Gold Glove shortstop.  Only eight OPS+ points shy of Mark Belanger.

[Can_of_corn]

16 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Chris Davis' worst full season he OPS+'d 49, OPS'd .539.

In 2019 MLB pitchers OPS'd .322, with a -13 OPS+.  They struck out 44% of PAs.

Bumgarner's career OPS+ is 46.  Greinke does have a 60/.600 so he'd be okay if he was a Gold Glove shortstop.  Only eight OPS+ points shy of Mark Belanger.

Worst full season so far.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

Didn’t seem so bad last night when Miami pinch hit the pitchers spot...With another pitcher, with 2 outs in the 9th.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

I would rather see a pitcher hit than Chris Davis

Not kidding.

I’d rather see a pitcher hit Chris Davis.

Kidding.   Sort of.   

[Tony-OH]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Couldn't you just give him an IBB without throwing any pitches?

Yes, but then everyone would know you are literally not giving the 8th batter a chance and that would look bad. By hitting the guy, he saves face and then just gets out of the inning by getting to face the pitcher.

[Three Run Homer]

5 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Tony, I agree with your overall premise but I don't think Neidert intentionally plunked Sisco with that pitch.  With the new intentional walk rule, he'd just have to signal that he'd want to put Sisco on base and that'd be it.

But yeah, last night I felt like we could have tacked on more runs in the first inning if Harvey wasn't batting.

Neidert probably wanted to walk Sisco to get the pitcher.  His manager might not have agreed!   So, a semi-intentional HBP.  

[ChipTait]

14 minutes ago, Three Run Homer said:

Neidert probably wanted to walk Sisco to get the pitcher.  His manager might not have agreed!   So, a semi-intentional HBP.  

At this point, I’d rather pitch to Sisco than the pitcher.

[Gentile4]

58 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Yes, but then everyone would know you are literally not giving the 8th batter a chance and that would look bad. By hitting the guy, he saves face and then just gets out of the inning by getting to face the pitcher.

I guess I look at that situation differently than you. I think it would look bad if he pitched to the 8th hitter with a career .107 hitting pitcher on deck. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Yes, but then everyone would know you are literally not giving the 8th batter a chance and that would look bad. By hitting the guy, he saves face and then just gets out of the inning by getting to face the pitcher.

Having not seen the pitch, I can’t say whether they seemed to hit Sisco intentionally.  We do know that he gets hit a lot.   

I had a look at 2018-19 (NL only) to see if the no. 8 hitter gets hit more often than other spots.   If you squint hard, you might say yes.

2018

Overall: 0.99% batters hit

Batting 7th: 1.06%

Batting 8th: 1.11%
 

2019

Overall: 1.12%

Batting 7th: 1.15%

Batting 8th: 1.26%

My guess is, if this is anything more than just random chance, it may be a matter of pitchers being more willing to pitch inside to the 8th batter in an effort to get them to hit a pitch they can’t drive, rather than hitting them intentionally.   

By the way, don’t make too much of the fact that both no. 7 and no. 8 get hit more than average.   The average includes the no. 9 spot, which has much lower HBP numbers than any of the others for obvious reasons.   





 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Gentile4 said:

I guess I look at that situation differently than you. I think it would look bad if he pitched to the 8th hitter with a career .107 hitting pitcher on deck. 

Strategically it makes sense, which is why I don't like the pitcher batting. I get pitching around guys or even walking them to get to a better matchup, but 99% of pitchers are almost automatic outs in leverage situations.

[Tony-OH]

16 hours ago, Frobby said:

Having not seen the pitch, I can’t say whether they seemed to hit Sisco intentionally.  We do know that he gets hit a lot.   

I had a look at 2018-19 (NL only) to see if the no. 8 hitter gets hit more often than other spots.   If you squint hard, you might say yes.

2018

Overall: 0.99% batters hit

Batting 7th: 1.06%

Batting 8th: 1.11%
 

2019

Overall: 1.12%

Batting 7th: 1.15%

Batting 8th: 1.26%

My guess is, if this is anything more than just random chance, it may be a matter of pitchers being more willing to pitch inside to the 8th batter in an effort to get them to hit a pitch they can’t drive, rather than hitting them intentionally.   

By the way, don’t make too much of the fact that both no. 7 and no. 8 get hit more than average.   The average includes the no. 9 spot, which has much lower HBP numbers than any of the others for obvious reasons.   





 

I don't think they get hit more often per se, but I bet the 8th hitter walk rate is higher than the 7th or 6th hitters. 

[Beef Supreme]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Having not seen the pitch, I can’t say whether they seemed to hit Sisco intentionally.  We do know that he gets hit a lot.   

I had a look at 2018-19 (NL only) to see if the no. 8 hitter gets hit more often than other spots.   If you squint hard, you might say yes.

2018

Overall: 0.99% batters hit

Batting 7th: 1.06%

Batting 8th: 1.11%
 

2019

Overall: 1.12%

Batting 7th: 1.15%

Batting 8th: 1.26%

My guess is, if this is anything more than just random chance, it may be a matter of pitchers being more willing to pitch inside to the 8th batter in an effort to get them to hit a pitch they can’t drive, rather than hitting them intentionally.   

By the way, don’t make too much of the fact that both no. 7 and no. 8 get hit more than average.   The average includes the no. 9 spot, which has much lower HBP numbers than any of the others for obvious reasons.   

Are these numbers league-wide? Is there a noticeable difference between the NL and the AL?