Target: Under 800 Runs Allowed

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, Philip said:

DEFENSE IS IMPORTANT. 
Not just not making errors but playing clean, throwing to the right guy, blocking pitches, covering the right base, and so on. Our defense looked like it was in slow motion much of the time. I remember lobs to first on routine ground balls that were so lazy the runner almost beat them out.

So stop spouting all this OBP to the exclusion of all else stuff. Defense is important! Kyle Seager is old and no longer elite, but he still plays a great 3B. I’d love to have him.

It’s important..but the level you take it to is absurd.

[interloper]

So, who are some *realistic* pitchers the O's could target to sort of incrementally improve their pitching numbers? 

[HowAboutThat]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s important..but the level you take it to is absurd.

No it isn’t.  what have you been watching the last three years you’ve been watching awful Defense. You’ve been watching bad pitching made worse by awful Defense. Trumbo had 47 Hrs. So what? His WAR was one of the worst in history for us 47 home run season because he gave everything back on defense. Nunez had 30 HRs And had the same situation.

The pitching suffers because the defense is so bad, I’m not taking it to any kind of extreme. On the contrary, if you have terrible Pitching, league average defense is more helpful to the pitching then league average offense because solid defense makes the pitcher’s job easier. That’s why I would much rather have Gutierrez Manning third-base then Nunez and his 30 home runs. 
It was amazing how lazy a lot of our guys were last season.

Next year we are going to have an incomplete team, I agree with you that Mike should Transition from win tomorrow to win today, but he’s not doing that, so we’re going to have a limited team, so be it.

That means we are going to be making sacrifices, but we should not sacrifice Defense for the sake of offense, So Stewart needs to go, and Gutierrez needs to stay despite your animosity towards his bat.

And no, I’m not taking it to any ludicrous extreme, although it is quite obvious that I’m more interested in defense in the team seems to be.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

No it isn’t.  what have you been watching the last three years you’ve been watching awful Defense. You’ve been watching bad pitching made worse by awful Defense. Trumbo had 47 Hrs. So what? His WAR was one of the worst in history for us 47 home run season because he gave everything back on defense. Nunez had 30 HRs And had the same situation.

The pitching suffers because the defense is so bad, I’m not taking it to any kind of extreme. On the contrary, if you have terrible Pitching, league average defense is more helpful to the pitching then league average offense because solid defense makes the pitcher’s job easier. That’s why I would much rather have Gutierrez Manning third-base then Nunez and his 30 home runs. 
It was amazing how lazy a lot of our guys were last season.

Next year we are going to have an incomplete team, I agree with you that Mike should Transition from win tomorrow to win today, but he’s not doing that, so we’re going to have a limited team, so be it.

That means we are going to be making sacrifices, but we should not sacrifice Defense for the sake of offense, So Stewart needs to go, and Gutierrez needs to stay despite your animosity towards his bat.

And no, I’m not taking it to any ludicrous extreme, although it is quite obvious that I’m more interested in defense in the team seems to be.

Why would you specify the last three years and then cite Trumbo's 2016 season?

Why would you cite a guy that put up a 2 win season on a playoff team in the first place?

 

[HowAboutThat]

38 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Absolutely nobody thinks defense isn’t important.   And anyone who watched a lot of Orioles baseball last year knows that we failed to turn a lot of makeable double plays.  

I think there are two reasons we were bad at DPs: lack of top notch defensive skills, and lack of continuity.  We never had any lengthy period where the same 2B, SS and 3B were playing together, so they never really got into a rhythm.   I’d hope for a steadier trio this year.
 

Your comment is kind of irrelevant. What you were saying is that we have a bad defense, then you’re saying why we are bad at defense. Everybody knows why we are bad at defense. We need better defenders to help our young pitching.

In the dumpsters where we are digging, we are, only through great good fortune, going to find a guy who can defend and hit well. Defense is more valuable at the moment.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Philip
Typos

[HowAboutThat]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s important..but the level you take it to is absurd.

I just reread all my comments, pal, what did I say that was “ludicrous?” What did I say that was beyond consideration? I said defense is important and I’m right, I even gave specific examples, Trumbo Nunez, and I could have given others.

So put up or shut up fella. What did I say that was ludicrous.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

I just reread all my comments, pal, what did I say that was “ludicrous?” What did I say that was beyond consideration? I said defense is important and I’m right, I even gave specific examples, Trumbo Nunez, and I could have given others.

So put up or shut up fella. What did I say that was ludicrous.

Everytime you talk about it, you are over the top.  Everyone sees it.

You place a value on defense that is so extreme that it ignores other good things players do.  It’s consistent with you.  You just choose to not want to see it.

I want good defense too..everyone does.  But I don’t want good defense at the expense of terrible offense.  Players bring value to the table in many different ways.  There isn’t one way to build a team and there isn’t one way a player has value.  You don’t seem to understand that.

[Sports Guy]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why would you specify the last three years and then cite Trumbo's 2016 season?

Why would you cite a guy that put up a 2 win season on a playoff team in the first place?

 

 

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why would you specify the last three years and then cite Trumbo's 2016 season?

Why would you cite a guy that put up a 2 win season on a playoff team in the first place?

 

And had league average-ish pitching.  He played almost 800 innings in the OF that year and somehow the team managed to get to the playoffs and have good enough pitching.

And being a run producer also helps pitching.  Pitchers who get run support can relax a little more.  It gives them confidence that if they make a mistake  the game isn’t over.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

And had league average-ish pitching.  He played almost 800 innings in the OF that year and somehow the team managed to get to the playoffs and have good enough pitching.

And being a run producer also helps pitching.  Pitchers who get run support can relax a little more.  It gives them confidence that if they make a mistake  the game isn’t over.

Not sure that's quantifiable.

Might be balderdash.

 

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Everytime you talk about it, you are over the top.  Everyone sees it.

You place a value on defense that is so extreme that it ignores other good things players do.  It’s consistent with you.  You just choose to not want to see it.

I want good defense too..everyone does.  But I don’t want good defense at the expense of terrible offense.  Players bring value to the table in many different ways.  There isn’t one way to build a team and there isn’t one way a player has value.  You don’t seem to understand that.

If you’d rather have Nunez that’s a problem. Hating on Gutierrez because he doesn’t hit well, ignoring his positive contribution, as clearly outlined by Frobby, is unproductive.

Im not the slightest bit over the top and saying “everyone knows it” is the most obvious straw man in the book. It’s like Obama constantly saying ,”there are those…who XXXX.” And then attacking all “those.”

(and I had no problem with Obama but that was constantly annoying.)

If we had average defense, how much more successful would our pitching be? A ground ball to deep second that is lazily fielded and results in one out or none instead of two. A game of “oh no, after you I insist” in the outfield and the ball drops for a hit, a slow path to a ball hit to medium left and a throw past the cutoff man, a lazy tag, a slow throw, not covering a base, those things happened constantly. Indeed they happened more often than not, and how much more work did they make for the pitching?

Defense is more important than a bunch of home runs. Average defense helps the pitching. And yet, if we had average offense, it wouldn’t help the pitching one bit.

Until we get a solid 3B(and believe me I want one more than you do because I’m old and haven’t much time before God gives the Call, and I want a WS on my resume before than) it is more important to focus on Defense. That’s not unreasonable at all, though your animosity towards Gutierrez is.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

If you’d rather have Nunez that’s a problem. Hating on Gutierrez because he doesn’t hit well, ignoring his positive contribution, as clearly outlined by Frobby, is unproductive.

Im not the slightest bit over the top and saying “everyone knows it” is the most obvious straw man in the book. It’s like Obama constantly saying ,”there are those…who XXXX.” And then attacking all “those.”

(and I had no problem with Obama but that was constantly annoying.)

If we had average defense, how much more successful would our pitching be? A ground ball to deep second that is lazily fielded and results in one out or none instead of two. A game of “oh no, after you I insist” in the outfield and the ball drops for a hit, a slow path to a ball hit to medium left and a throw past the cutoff man, a lazy tag, a slow throw, not covering a base, those things happened constantly. Indeed they happened more often than not, and how much more work did they make for the pitching?

Defense is more important than a bunch of home runs. Average defense helps the pitching. And yet, if we had average offense, it wouldn’t help the pitching one bit.

Until we get a solid 3B(and believe me I want one more than you do because I’m old and haven’t much time before God gives the Call, and I want a WS on my resume before than) it is more important to focus on Defense. That’s not unreasonable at all, though your animosity towards Gutierrez is.

The focus should be on value and best player you can get.  Valuing defense much higher than offense is just silly.  
 

 

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

 

And had league average-ish pitching.  He played almost 800 innings in the OF that year and somehow the team managed to get to the playoffs and have good enough pitching.

And being a run producer also helps pitching.  Pitchers who get run support can relax a little more.  It gives them confidence that if they make a mistake  the game isn’t over.

I cited Trumbo because he’s an extreme example of terrible defense canceling out offense.

The 2016 infield defense was excellent. Just watching the WC highlights illustrates my point.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

I cited Trumbo because he’s an extreme example of terrible defense canceling out offense.

The 2016 infield defense was excellent. Just watching the WC highlights illustrates my point.

But it didn't cancel it out.

He ended up with over 2 WAR.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

I cited Trumbo because he’s an extreme example of terrible defense canceling out offense.

The 2016 infield defense was excellent. Just watching the WC highlights illustrates my point.

Except he’s not an example.  He was still a 2+ WAR guy who provided surplus value.

His offense made him a positive player, despite subpar OF defense.

[HowAboutThat]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

The focus should be on value and best player you can get.  Valuing defense much higher than offense is just silly.  
 

 

I don’t. You’re mistaken. I would rather have McKenna than Stewart because Stewart is bad and McKenna is not, even though Stewart can draw a walk and occasionally hits the moon, and McKenna doesn’t hit well. I would rather have MC at 1b/DH than LF because he’s bad in LF(It took too long, but Hyde eventually agreed and made the switch.) I’d rather have a good defensive catcher than Severino, who hits near average for catcher, even if the good defending catcher doesn’t hit well. And so on. None of those is an unreasonable position. 
And you completely ignored my point about good defense helping the pitching, which remains true.