MLB Lockout Thread

[Tony-OH]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:46 AM, Sports Guy said:

You don't have to have a cap.  The floor does more for the game than a cap does.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't make sense unless you are going to pay way more money for the early years of the deal than you have to and why would you do that?  If I can pay a guy 2M over the course of 3 years, why would I pay him 20M for those 3 years?  

Floors are stupid and do nothing but make a team overpay mediocre talent. The system is simple, if teams don't spend then the fans have the choice of not watching or supporting. Forcing teams to spend "x" amount of money to meet a floor, while Big market teams can spend what they want is literally lunacy for any chance of fairness across all 30 teams for competition purposes. 

No matter what you think, having the ability to spend $200 million or more on a pay roll DOES make it much easier to compete year in and year out, particularly over a 162 game schedule.

Clearly the playoffs are a crapshoot, but there's a reason why the big market teams with the huge payrolls are in the playoffs year in and year out.

 

[Tony-OH]

On 2/6/2022 at 7:29 AM, Frobby said:

From David Laurila on Fangraphs:

MLB and the MLBPA are currently at war, the former having implemented a lockout while the two sides negotiate a new CBA. With the scheduled start of spring training fast approaching, and progress seemingly at a standstill, fans are becoming increasingly impatient, if not frustrated and/or angry. With that in mind, I ran the following Twitter poll on Thursday afternoon:

With the caveat that bargaining is a two-way street, which side do you support in the CBA negotiations: MLB players, or MLB owners?

A total of 1,198 people weighed in, and the results spoke volumes. An overwhelming 94.5% voted MLB Players, while only 5.5% sided with MLB owners.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-the-crime-dogs-equal-carlos-delgado-deserves-another-look/

Fangraphs is probably a somewhat skewed audience, and I’d expect a more general poll to be less lopsided, but it’s apparent that those who are blaming the players are in the minority.   That’s important in the negotiations because public perception will affect how fans react when the work stoppage ends.   

The one thing that our country proves on a daily basis is the general public is dumb, uninformed, lazy, and easily influenced by what they are told. 

Anyone who is small market fan (that's basically us now that the Nats exist) that is pro player after reading everything that they want (basically if the players got what they want all small market teams would basically be irrelevant year in and year out), either doesn't care about the Orioles ever being relevant on a year in and out basis, or is so caught up in a pro union stance because of their politics that they can't see how them getting what they want will do.

There are ways to make profit sharing exist that would help spread some of that owners cash to players, but the players are just focused on no caps, penalties and salary floors. 

I guess no one cares that tickets for good seats now sit between $45-90 for one game out of 162. One game out of 162. 

I know fanboys and girls don't really understand how little players and owners for that matter care about the common fan. They love their favorite player and think those players love them back, but really, most players could give two squats about the fans.

Sure, they'll say the right things in the press, but just watching these negotiations and how players like Scherzer (who makes over $40 million/year) talks about the horrors the players have to endure under this awful system that stops him from potentially earning $50 million a year.

So sad, yet fanboys fall for this schtick because it's easy to blame the greedy Billionaire owners. 

As I've said before, the owners bear some fault in all of all this too because they won't open the books, but honestly, right now, the owners are the only things stopping this sport from being all about the big markets with the rest of the team just there to be the Generals to the Globetrotters.

[Can_of_corn]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Scherzer has become the spokesman for the ultra rich out of touch baseball player. I've lost any respect i ever had for him after his ridiculous comments that sows he cares about nothing but making as much money as possible, even if that means just the big market teams get to compete year in and year out.

 

Presented with a situation in which teams such as Cleveland, Baltimore, Miami and Pittsburgh refuse to spend the money to field a competitive team Scherzer should advocate, as a player, for limiting the ability of the teams that are willing to pay so everyone can be more competitive?

I can't agree with that at all.

Cleveland had a great core and refused to spend the money to keep it together.  That should be rewarded?

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Floors are stupid and do nothing but make a team overpay mediocre talent. The system is simple, if teams don't spend then the fans have the choice of not watching or supporting. Forcing teams to spend "x" amount of money to meet a floor, while Big market teams can spend what they want is literally lunacy for any chance of fairness across all 30 teams for competition purposes. 

No matter what you think, having the ability to spend $200 million or more on a pay roll DOES make it much easier to compete year in and year out, particularly over a 162 game schedule.

Clearly the playoffs are a crapshoot, but there's a reason why the big market teams with the huge payrolls are in the playoffs year in and year out.

 

Floors accomplish what they want it to accomplish and it makes teams not really tank.

Im not scared for the teams that spend 200+m on payroll.  The Mets payroll could come close to 300M this year and I still don’t think they are the favorites in the NLE.

A team like Tampa and the way they do things scare me way more than the Yankees.

Now, the real scary combo is the Dodgers.  They do it all but we don’t play them, so I don’t care.  If the Yankees ever get smart, they are a lot scarier.

You are way more focused on the bigger money than I am.  I just don’t care about it. 99 times out of 100, the big money blows up in your face.  

[Tony-OH]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Floors accomplish what they want it to accomplish and it makes teams not really tank.

Im not scared for the teams that spend 200+m on payroll.  The Mets payroll could come close to 300M this year and I still don’t think they are the favorites in the NLE.

A team like Tampa and the way they do things scare me way more than the Yankees.

Now, the real scary combo is the Dodgers.  They do it all but we don’t play them, so I don’t care.  If the Yankees ever get smart, they are a lot scarier.

You are way more focused on the bigger money than I am.  I just don’t care about it. 99 times out of 100, the big money blows up in your face.  

The problem with that is this statement is just not true. 

Year and year out, the big market teams are in the playoffs. Do they get beat there, sure, because a 5 or 7 game series is a crapshoot and you can take any team in the league and they can beat another in a 5 or 7 game series.

Can big contracts backfire, sure, but when they backfire for a big market team they shrug, and go off an just buy another guy. Teams like the Orioles just can't do that. So that teams like the Orioles (small market) at a disadvantage because they just can't out buy their mistakes like the big markets can.

Tampa is the model you and some others like to point out as being successful, but I think worth mentioning that Tampa has been playing 3D chess while the rest of the league plays checkers for years. I think teams are starting to catch up in a lot of ways, but the other thing to consider is the Rays don't draw well (lots of reasons for that I know) and have only made the playoffs the last three years after missing for five years straight. They also have never won a World Series.

The Yankees have been in the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years, The Dodgers have been in the last 9 straight post seasons, Astros 6 out of seven, and Red Sox 5 of the 8 with two World Series wins. Really only Mets, White Sox and Angels have played poorly while being a big market team and well, they have bad management.

[BohKnowsBmore]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Orioles fans on every free agent ever: Not my money, just pay him whatever it takes.  Overpay if it means he'll come to Baltimore.  Angelos is the worst owner ever.

Orioles fans on labor disputes: Can't believe these entitled, pampered suckers won't just agree to whatever the owners offered, that's more money than they could ever use. Angelos put his own money into this, he's taking the risks not the players.

I honestly think framing it as fans choosing between the owners and players misses the true alignment. Ultimately fans interests align most with the GM/FO of their respective teams. This discussion makes way more sense when you think about it that way IMO

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The problem with that is this statement is just not true. 

Year and year out, the big market teams are in the playoffs. Do they get beat there, sure, because a 5 or 7 game series is a crapshoot and you can take any team in the league and they can beat another in a 5 or 7 game series.

Can big contracts backfire, sure, but when they backfire for a big market team they shrug, and go off an just buy another guy. Teams like the Orioles just can't do that. So that teams like the Orioles (small market) at a disadvantage because they just can't out buy their mistakes like the big markets can.

Tampa is the model you and some others like to point out as being successful, but I think worth mentioning that Tampa has been playing 3D chess while the rest of the league plays checkers for years. I think teams are starting to catch up in a lot of ways, but the other thing to consider is the Rays don't draw well (lots of reasons for that I know) and have only made the playoffs the last three years after missing for five years straight. They also have never won a World Series.

The Yankees have been in the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years, The Dodgers have been in the last 9 straight post seasons, Astros 6 out of seven, and Red Sox 5 of the 8 with two World Series wins. Really only Mets, White Sox and Angels have played poorly while being a big market team and well, they have bad management.

Sure,.they do make the playoffs and their margin for error is higher.  That’s not disputable.

But give me the organization that does things intelligently and I will take my chances.

The Orioles can and have recently afforded a payroll in the 160s.  They don’t need to spend that much to be a successful team year in and year out.  

This whole, you can’t overcome money stuff is bs to me.  Plenty of teams are spending far less money than the Yankees and Dodgers and are still winning at a high rate and always in the playoff mix.   

You can be scared of the money but I’m far more scared by intelligence.  

 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The problem with that is this statement is just not true. 

Year and year out, the big market teams are in the playoffs. Do they get beat there, sure, because a 5 or 7 game series is a crapshoot and you can take any team in the league and they can beat another in a 5 or 7 game series.

Can big contracts backfire, sure, but when they backfire for a big market team they shrug, and go off an just buy another guy. Teams like the Orioles just can't do that. So that teams like the Orioles (small market) at a disadvantage because they just can't out buy their mistakes like the big markets can.

Tampa is the model you and some others like to point out as being successful, but I think worth mentioning that Tampa has been playing 3D chess while the rest of the league plays checkers for years. I think teams are starting to catch up in a lot of ways, but the other thing to consider is the Rays don't draw well (lots of reasons for that I know) and have only made the playoffs the last three years after missing for five years straight. They also have never won a World Series.

The Yankees have been in the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 years, The Dodgers have been in the last 9 straight post seasons, Astros 6 out of seven, and Red Sox 5 of the 8 with two World Series wins. Really only Mets, White Sox and Angels have played poorly while being a big market team and well, they have bad management.

I'd group the Phillies in there.

So what you are saying is, if a team has good management and an owner willing to pay they end up in the playoffs more often?

Isn't that true for all sports?  Shouldn't a team that is well run and willing to spend money do better than a team that doesn't have one or both of those things?

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure,.they do make the playoffs and their margin for error is higher.  That’s not disputable.

But give me the organization that does things intelligently and I will take my chances.

The Orioles can and have recently afforded a payroll in the 160s.  They don’t need to spend that much to be a successful team year in and year out.  

This whole, you can’t overcome money stuff is bs to me.  Plenty of teams are spending far less money than the Yankees and Dodgers and are still winning at a high rate and always in the playoff mix.   

You can be scared of the money but I’m far more scared by intelligence.  

 

A $160 million payroll would have been 10th in the league last year. They absolutely should be able to compete with that IF the system keeps the big market teams in the low 200s or upper 180+. The problem is before the luxury tax came to be, teams were getting into the $300 million range.

I'm with you when it comes to watching a tanking team. It sucks. If it weren't for my interest in the minor leagues, I probably would have lost interest in watching just the Orioles over the last few years, especially last year when they brought up non major league players to the major leagues. 

This is why I'd rather make adjustments to control and earning free agency which would enable teams to bring up prospects vs 31 year old knuckleball pitchers who can't get AAA batters out. 

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'd group the Phillies in there.

So what you are saying is, if a team has good management and an owner willing to pay they end up in the playoffs more often?

Isn't that true for all sports?  Shouldn't a team that is well run and willing to spend money do better than a team that doesn't have one or both of those things?

Of course a team needs good management, but I will say a big market teams can make more mistakes and still be competitive since they can take on more salary to make up for this mistakes.

The current system has the average payroll at $127,742,064 in 2021. The Rays and Brewers are the only team with a below average payroll that made the playoffs last year. Neither made the World Series.

Of course a team can catch lightening in a bottle for a season or two before having to pay the big contracts, but for the most part, having an above average pay significantly improves your chances of making the playoffs on a consistent basis.

 

 

[interloper]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:08 PM, Tony-OH said:

MLBPA doesn't want the fairness of mediator. They are all about winning at all costs. More money, less fairness. Less competition, but a few more dollars in their pockets to play in front of less people as fans continue to drop baseball in favor of other entertainment options. 

The MLBPA is the problem and will be the downfall of baseball as we know it unless the players wake up and get new leadership.

Dunno about this take... 

[Frobby]

50 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Floors accomplish what they want it to accomplish and it makes teams not really tank.

It depends how low the floor is.   Last year in the NFL the highest payroll was $205 mm and the lowest was $172 mm.   I’d love to see baseball have that narrow a payroll spread, but it’s never going to happen.  

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, interloper said:

Dunno about this take... 

You can certainly disagree. What is wrong with it? What tells you the players care about anything other than making the most money possible, even at the cost of competitiveness for all teams.

Perhaps I missed something. I'm always willing to take more information in and change my mind based on the new evidence, but all you have to do is listen to ultra rich elitist Scherzer to know what the players want.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

It depends how low the floor is.   Last year in the NFL the highest payroll was $205 mm and the lowest was $172 mm.   I’d love to see baseball have that narrow a payroll spread, but it’s never going to happen.  

80-100M is fine.

[DrungoHazewood]

31 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure,.they do make the playoffs and their margin for error is higher.  That’s not disputable.

But give me the organization that does things intelligently and I will take my chances.

The Orioles can and have recently afforded a payroll in the 160s.  They don’t need to spend that much to be a successful team year in and year out.  

This whole, you can’t overcome money stuff is bs to me.  Plenty of teams are spending far less money than the Yankees and Dodgers and are still winning at a high rate and always in the playoff mix.   

You can be scared of the money but I’m far more scared by intelligence.  

 

The problem is that the intelligence floor has come up tremendously the last 10-15 years.  There are no more Syd Thrifts.  Every front office is very smart.  I think there's a much wider spread in revenues than in intelligence.