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Mateo's Bottom of the Eighth (Infield in 2023 talk)

Pickles

By Pickles
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OriolesMagic83 Hangout Grand Counsel

OriolesMagic83

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22 minutes ago, Pickles said:

No, he helps our team at 2b because he's replacing Odor.

I mean, I gotta be honest, fellas: We literally just spent an entire season playing Odor everyday at 2b, because that was probably the best option in org, until Henderson was deemed ready.

I know we have some nice infield prospects in the system.  I don't really feel comfortable trading away guys right now and just handing 2 spots to rookies.  I don't want to be a broken thumb, or broken ankle, or busted prospect (and I like all of you really like Ortiz and Westburg, but neither is guranteed, and it's seems highly probable that both won't be immediate 2-3 win players as rookies) from having to go back to playing a guy like Odor.

I'm not saying Urias needs to start.  I'm not even saying Mateo needs to start.  I'm saying Westburg has every opportunity to beat out Urias for 2b next year from day one.  But I"m not trading Urias till he does that.  I'm not worried about any "lost" value that Urias will take from such a turn of events.  I prefer the security.

I don't see the harm in holding onto Urias either.  I think other teams are valuing him as a good utility player.  No team is valuing him as a gold glove 3B.  What would he bring in trade, maybe a top 20 or even top 15 prospect.  He's not bringing a major return. 

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Pickles
Pickles

I just really think it's worth noting Jorge Mateo's performance in the bottom of the eighth inning last night.  He made three defensive plays, ranging from nice to spectacular, to record all three out

Tony-OH
Tony-OH

Mateo is quite the dilemma, but in a good way. His defense is most of his value but when you consider he's playing a GG level SS, that's significant value to any team. His ability to be a disrupter on

Frobby
Frobby

Tony hasn’t gone quite as far as saying that Ortiz is as good as Mateo.  I, for one, would need to see that to believe it.   Guys who are rated elite in the minors often don’t look quite as elite when

Pickles Hangout Grand Counsel

Pickles

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Just now, OriolesMagic83 said:

I don't see the harm in holding onto Urias either.  I think other teams are valuing him as a good utility player.  No team is valuing him as a gold glove 3B.  What would he bring in trade, maybe a top 20 or even top 15 prospect.  He's not bringing a major return. 

Agreed.  But that doesn't mean he doesn't have value for us.

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RZNJ Hangout Grand Counsel

RZNJ

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13 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Right, because they didn't have anything in house.  They still don't, beyond Urias.  That's the point.

Rookies of Ortiz and Westburg's status, that is to say non-elite, should be given the opportunity to win jobs.  Productive young players on sensible contracts should not be shipped out to clear spots for said rookies until they are outplayed.

If Urias and Mateo get played into a utility role, that's a good thing.  That's good for the team.

How do Urías and Mateo get played into utility roles unless they suck?    How is that good for the team?   That means they lose whatever value they have now and hurt the team while doing it.   You do realize that these non elite prospects are much better prospects than Urías ever was.

I guess we have different definitions of in house.  The Orioles have Vavra, Ortiz, Westburg, and Norby who all look ML ready or pretty damn close.  All can play 2B.  Yet, you’re worried what happens if one of them breaks a thumb or doesn’t produce.   It’s time!   You don’t hang onto Urías for 2B because you’re scared your young guys aren’t ready.  This was the whole purpose of the rebuild.

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wildcard Hangout Grand Counsel

wildcard

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20 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I came late to the party. Great posts all around. Here is my humble take:

  1. Mateo's trade value is much higher than it was before this season. I think a team will overpay for him. Maybe he's included in a trade for pitching?
  2. Ortiz has looked elite for 3 months... After looking meh for 3 months. He very well may be able to replace Mateo. But what is the plan B if not?
  3. If Westburg has a good Spring, bring him up as a utility guy. Find him a first baseman's mitt and teach him to play there. 
  4. Norby looks like a stud hitter. Simple compact swing with power. Can he play in positions other than 2B to increase his value?
  5. Alex Lifeson is seriously underappreciated as a guitarist. Top 10 all-time IMO

Norby might be a DH.

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Pickles Hangout Grand Counsel

Pickles

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Just now, RZNJ said:

How do Urías and Mateo get played into utility roles unless they suck?    How is that good for the team?   That means they lose whatever value they have now and hurt the team while doing it.   You do realize that these non elite prospects are much better prospects than Urías ever was.

I'm not worried about them "losing value."  I already explicitly explained that: I prefer the security.  

They could get played into utility roles in many ways.  They could get hurt.  Urias could keep hitting like he has the last few months.  Mateo's bat could crater.  Henderson and Ortiz could light the world on fire in spring training, and just gradually take more and more playing time.  Ideally, that's how it would happen.

I do realize non-elite prospects are higher ranked than Urias ever was.  I also realize non-elite prospects don't become the player Urias is right now 70% of the time.

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Pickles Hangout Grand Counsel

Pickles

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5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

His defensive numbers may slide, even if we don’t perceive that he’s slipping.  

If he keeps playing defense as he did last night, and has for the entire season, I don't care what his defensive numbers say tbh.

And at 27, and one hell of an athlete, I think we're a couple years away from seeing any significant decline.

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Aristotelian Hangout Grand Counsel

Aristotelian

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47 minutes ago, Pickles said:

No, he helps our team at 2b because he's replacing Odor.

I mean, I gotta be honest, fellas: We literally just spent an entire season playing Odor everyday at 2b, because that was probably the best option in org, until Henderson was deemed ready.

I know we have some nice infield prospects in the system.  I don't really feel comfortable trading away guys right now and just handing 2 spots to rookies.  I don't want to be a broken thumb, or broken ankle, or busted prospect (and I like all of you really like Ortiz and Westburg, but neither is guranteed, and it's seems highly probable that both won't be immediate 2-3 win players as rookies) from having to go back to playing a guy like Odor.

I'm not saying Urias needs to start.  I'm not even saying Mateo needs to start.  I'm saying Westburg has every opportunity to beat out Urias for 2b next year from day one.  But I"m not trading Urias till he does that.  I'm not worried about any "lost" value that Urias will take from such a turn of events.  I prefer the security.

Odor is a free agent after this year. He is irrelevant. If all you're saying is that Urias would be an improvement, no argument there! I also agree with the overall point, we shouldn't be in a rush to trade Urias or Mateo. I was specifically arguing with the statement that we are as a team better with Urias at 2B than 3B. 

I definitely agree we should not be in a rush to trade either Urias or Mateo. They have value as utility players or backups in case the prospects don't pan out. 

That said, I think Westburg has done everything deserving of making the opening day roster. He's OPSing close to .900 over 300+ AB's. He could pretty much go 0-for-spring training and I think he should still make the roster for opening day or shortly thereafter based on his body of work. That means pushing one of Urias or Mateo to the bench. If we got value back - say they are part of a Pablo Lopez packege - you don't think we'd be better off than with Urias as a Plan B for Westburg (when we also have Vavra, Ortiz, and Norby as C and D)? 

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