The warning signs are there for the reading

[DrinkinWithFermi]

3 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Ok I get it.

Not sure I agree with your opinion of all the time, I see 2 seasons, he barely pitched, and another a bit more, but the other 5 are above 20 starts or better.

Roch doesnt believe he is coming here, so maybe, this is all just killing time during the winter.

 

He has one full, healthy season in his entire career mostly due to pitching arm issues. For $200ish million dollars, that is quite a risk.

And he definitely isn't coming here, so it's ultimately not our problem, which I am just fine with.

[deward]

6 hours ago, Explosivo said:

Most of y’all here frankly don’t deserve what Elias and Sig and Blood and Holt and Rosenbaum have built here in short order. You don’t respect it and you sure as hell don’t understand it.

Ok, that's the funniest thing I've read here all week. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

6 hours ago, Explosivo said:

First of all, we can quibble over the quality of hitters he’s faced, for example some have even had more of a cup of coffee like Mercedes, but that only partially illustrates how far off the mark most of you are. Most of y’all here frankly don’t deserve what Elias and Sig and Blood and Holt and Rosenbaum have built here in short order. You don’t respect it and you sure as hell don’t understand it. No matter how well they draft, no matter how far ahead of the curve our young talent is, no matter how much our coaches get out of our kids, you just won’t ever believe and trust what they are doing. It’s hilarious if it weren’t so damned depressing. You belly ache and moan over decisions well out of your control and sure as hell out of theirs. You gloss over Gibson choosing the O’s with similar contracts in place by our rivals. Does Toronto wanting to sign him for similar money mean anything to you? And if other pitchers decide to go elsewhere than the O’s is that Elias’ fault? 
 

we are young and largely unproven but this will be the last year that moniker will befall us and even with your rainy day parade pissy attitudes, the O’s will continue to prove you wrong, just as they did last year. None of you saw what was coming except those who understand the plan. Most of you seriously can’t grasp how good you have it. Our farm system is number one by miles. We are loaded with talent both in the field and in the bullpen. These guys will continue to progress and make their way up. Until then, we need another stop gap pitcher. Wacha or Lyles will do. We need another backup catcher. Hedges will do and we need another stop gap corner outfielder, there’s a few of those that will do. This is not the year to burn money. The Astros showed you the way. Now is the time to build experience. Now is the time to see what these kids can do, not block their trajectory. 

Reading one of your long-winded, condescending, gibberish-laden rants was more than enough, so I'm going to pass on reading this one.

[Tony-OH]

22 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think we should give the “Tampa hasn’t won a WS title” argument a rest.  

Feel free to rest it or never say it again. Until it's not a fact, it's a fact.

Tampa is a great organization and there are lots of things Elias could "borrow" in order to try and make the Orioles relevant, especially if he's going to be under similar limited budget due to the Angelos family pocketing money instead of spending it on their team. 

Now, as it's been pointed out, Tampa has adjusted of late by signing young talent to long term contracts to get away from having to trade their best players when they get expensive.

Saying that, why their model has kept them relevant and winning, it has not changed their horrible attendance nor has it won them a WS. 

I don't want a winning team that gets their asses kicked in the playoff every year. i want a team that legitimately is one of the best team's in the league, and that's only going to come from a mixture of building from within, trades and signing key free agents for specific need areas.

There are some around here that are very vocal on doing it all from within, but they over estimate our current starting pitching options and the fact that Elias has ignored pitching in the first 3 or 4 rounds of the draft, they don't have those impact starting pitching prospects in the system outside of the guys Rajsich drafted.

That means trades or free agents and with the Angelos family in dire straights between their inter-family lawsuits and the MASN situation, I don't see them opening up their pocket books to allow Elias to do so.

I hope I'm wrong on the ladder, but so far, all signs to point towards that being true, even after the team received it' big Disney check that the rest of the teams seem to be spending.

 

[Tony-OH]

8 hours ago, Explosivo said:

Some of y’all I get the feeling are old men yells at cloud type guys and nothing could be good enough for ya. It’s honestly a bit of a personality defect that bleeds into sports more than your clear and concise ideas for the future of 2023. Because of this, your thoughts are discounted and should be taken with gallons of salt. All good though, carry on sky screechers.

Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that will get you a break. See you in a week if you can mature. 

[interloper]

7 hours ago, Explosivo said:

First of all, we can quibble over the quality of hitters he’s faced, for example some have even had more of a cup of coffee like Mercedes, but that only partially illustrates how far off the mark most of you are. Most of y’all here frankly don’t deserve what Elias and Sig and Blood and Holt and Rosenbaum have built here in short order. You don’t respect it and you sure as hell don’t understand it. No matter how well they draft, no matter how far ahead of the curve our young talent is, no matter how much our coaches get out of our kids, you just won’t ever believe and trust what they are doing. It’s hilarious if it weren’t so damned depressing. You belly ache and moan over decisions well out of your control and sure as hell out of theirs. You gloss over Gibson choosing the O’s with similar contracts in place by our rivals. Does Toronto wanting to sign him for similar money mean anything to you? And if other pitchers decide to go elsewhere than the O’s is that Elias’ fault? 
 

we are young and largely unproven but this will be the last year that moniker will befall us and even with your rainy day parade pissy attitudes, the O’s will continue to prove you wrong, just as they did last year. None of you saw what was coming except those who understand the plan. Most of you seriously can’t grasp how good you have it. Our farm system is number one by miles. We are loaded with talent both in the field and in the bullpen. These guys will continue to progress and make their way up. Until then, we need another stop gap pitcher. Wacha or Lyles will do. We need another backup catcher. Hedges will do and we need another stop gap corner outfielder, there’s a few of those that will do. This is not the year to burn money. The Astros showed you the way. Now is the time to build experience. Now is the time to see what these kids can do, not block their trajectory. 

I love the current braintrust of the Orioles just as much as the next guy, and probably more. If you search "orioles" in twitter, you will find a bunch of misinformed people blaming Elias and calling him a terrible GM. I think that's objectively false considering what he's accomplished, and I think most on the OH would agree, give or take a quibble or two. His biggest mistake was opening his mouth too much and giving the media a few quotes to run wild with. 

Any real criticism should be laid at the feet of John Angelos because the team absolutely has the ability to BOTH enact Elias' vision AND spend wisely to supplement that vision. I think that's all people want. Is it Elias' vision to NOT spend this offseason? I don't think we can really say that. He said he wanted to add more to the rotation via free agency after Gibson, and that he wanted to add a lefty bat that would be "in the starting 9". So far that's not happened, but I don't think it's his goal to NOT hand out any more contracts this winter. 

As it stands though, I think they will go for it at the trade deadline if the team is in the fight. And then next off-season is the one where Angelos should approve a much larger budget. And if they don't spend, they better be prepared to defend the Warehouse because it's going to get ugly. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by interloper

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Feel free to rest it or never say it again. Until it's not a fact, it's a fact.

Tampa is a great organization and there are lots of things Elias could "borrow" in order to try and make the Orioles relevant, especially if he's going to be under similar limited budget due to the Angelos family pocketing money instead of spending it on their team. 

Now, as it's been pointed out, Tampa has adjusted of late by signing young talent to long term contracts to get away from having to trade their best players when they get expensive.

Saying that, why their model has kept them relevant and winning, it has not changed their horrible attendance nor has it won them a WS. 

I don't want a winning team that gets their asses kicked in the playoff every year. i want a team that legitimately is one of the best team's in the league, and that's only going to come from a mixture of building from within, trades and signing key free agents for specific need areas.

There are some around here that are very vocal on doing it all from within, but they over estimate our current starting pitching options and the fact that Elias has ignored pitching in the first 3 or 4 rounds of the draft, they don't have those impact starting pitching prospects in the system outside of the guys Rajsich drafted.

That means trades or free agents and with the Angelos family in dire straights between their inter-family lawsuits and the MASN situation, I don't see them opening up their pocket books to allow Elias to do so.

I hope I'm wrong on the ladder, but so far, all signs to point towards that being true, even after the team received it' big Disney check that the rest of the teams seem to be spending.

 

Are the Ray's a winning team that gets their asses kicked in the playoffs each year?  Just asking.

Are the Yankees, who haven't won a WS since 2009, a winning team who gets their asses kicked in the playoffs each year?

Seems like two different philosophies with similar results over the last 13 years.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, RZNJ said:

Are the Ray's a winning team that gets their asses kicked in the playoffs each year?  Just asking.

Are the Yankees, who haven't won a WS since 2009, a winning team who gets their asses kicked in the playoffs each year?

Seems like two different philosophies with similar results over the last 13 years.

I can not argue with that because you are correct. All I meant y the Tampa model was that they have done well, but not had a ton of success in the playoffs. Is that just because of the "craziness" of the playoffs, perhaps, but it's still a fact.

As for the Yankees, I'm just going to enjoy their lack of success in the playoffs!

[owknows]

14 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

So tell us, what kind of starting pitching do you think Hays and Santander brings you? 

The kind that wears Old Spice aftershave, eats sardines out of the can, and drives a convertible?

[OriolesMagic83]

16 hours ago, MDtransplant757 said:

My guess would be at this moment if nothing else happens, that's the plan. Whoever your weakest two starters or whoever gets hurt gets replaced by Hall, GrayRod or both

It is almost a necessity to be 7 starters deep.  I was genuinely surprised the O's made it thru last season w/o the rotation imploding.  How many starters did the Mets use last year?  Must have had more than 10 pitchers make multiple starts.  I really think the O's need one more dependable starter.  If the O's somehow end up w/ too many starters, there's always the trade market.

[Frobby]

20 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I can not argue with that because you are correct. All I meant y the Tampa model was that they have done well, but not had a ton of success in the playoffs. Is that just because of the "craziness" of the playoffs, perhaps, but it's still a fact.

As for the Yankees, I'm just going to enjoy their lack of success in the playoffs!

I think the answer to this is complex.  The playoffs are not totally random, but there’s a lot of randomness in them.  Look how dominant the Dodgers have been — they’ve been to the playoffs ten years in a row and had the best record in the NL four times in that span, yet they only have one WS title in that ten year span.  Remember those Braves teams that won their division 14 years in a row and led the NL in wins 9 times?  One WS win.   Yet the Giants won three WS in 5 years with teams that won 92, 94 and 88 games.  In basically that same time period, the Cardinals won two WS with teams that won 90 and 83 games.  

For me, the bottom line is you can’t win the WS if you’re not in the playoffs.   So. the objective of building a team that’s in the playoffs on a consistent basis is the best path to winning a WS.  Sure you can have teams that have a short peak and win a WS like the 2015 Royals, and then plummet back into the depths, but I think the odds of winning a WS that way are worse, and the non-WS years are far less enjoyable. 
 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I think the answer to this is complex.  The playoffs are not totally random, but there’s a lot of randomness in them.  Look how dominant the Dodgers have been — they’ve been to the playoffs ten years in a row and had the best record in the NL four times in that span, yet they only have one WS title in that ten year span.  Remember those Braves teams that won their division 14 years in a row and led the NL in wins 9 times?  One WS win.   Yet the Giants won three WS in 5 years with teams that won 92, 94 and 88 games.  In basically that same time period, the Cardinals won two WS with teams that won 90 and 83 games.  

For me, the bottom line is you can’t win the WS if you’re not in the playoffs.   So. the objective of building a team that’s in the playoffs on a consistent basis is the best path to winning a WS.  Sure you can have teams that have a short peak and win a WS like the 2015 Royals, and then plummet back into the depths, but I think the odds of winning a WS that way are worse, and the non-WS years are far less enjoyable. 
 

I agree that the team should be built to be successful over a 162 game season (personally I'd like to see that shaved down to 152 ish games), but they also have to realize some players are able to perform deep into October and some wear out. 

Obviously the more impact pitching you have you would think that would help, but deep bullpens with impact relievers are just as key in the playoffs, maybe even more so with the quick hooks nowadays in these series.

Its tough to win a World Series, and I do have a ton of respect for how Tampa has gone about making themselves relevant with a limited budget, but has Tampa ever really been a favorite going into a season. Is anyone scared to face them in the playoffs?

I want the team built to be dominant in October. Whether players perform that way is really all over the place so its hard to say how you do that, but having a couple of aces and deep pen with three impact relievers is a great start.

[Redskins Rick]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I want the team built to be dominant in October. Whether players perform that way is really all over the place so its hard to say how you do that, but having a couple of aces and deep pen with three impact relievers is a great start.

Everybody wants to be in the WS, but like Weams would say. Playing meaningful baseball games in the late Fall is all we can hope for, and sure beats being out of it by the end of May.

[Three Run Homer]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:04 AM, Explosivo said:

Our farm system is number one by miles. We are loaded with talent both in the field and in the bullpen. These guys will continue to progress and make their way up. Until then, we need another stop gap pitcher. Wacha or Lyles will do. 

The idea that we just need a "stop gap" pitcher presumes that we have a wave of pitching prospects on the way and that we just need a temporary bridge until they arrive.  I don't think that's the case.  Elias has built his farm system to be heavy on hitting prospects and light on pitching prospects.  He didn't draft GrayRod or DL Hall, and they are the only guys in the system with the upside potential of being front-line starters, with long odds that they will both pan out. 

The bottom line is that I don't think this team can win a World Series with the starting pitchers they currently have in the system, so it's going to take some high-level FA signings or some shrewd trades to get there.  

[foxfield]

21 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I agree that the team should be built to be successful over a 162 game season (personally I'd like to see that shaved down to 152 ish games), but they also have to realize some players are able to perform deep into October and some wear out. 

Obviously the more impact pitching you have you would think that would help, but deep bullpens with impact relievers are just as key in the playoffs, maybe even more so with the quick hooks nowadays in these series.

Its tough to win a World Series, and I do have a ton of respect for how Tampa has gone about making themselves relevant with a limited budget, but has Tampa ever really been a favorite going into a season. Is anyone scared to face them in the playoffs?

I want the team built to be dominant in October. Whether players perform that way is really all over the place so it’s hard to say how you do that, but having a couple of aces and deep pen with three impact relievers is a great start.

Teams built to be dominant like the Dodgers, Astros or Yankees are not impossible in Baltimore. It would take a really good front office.  Which I believe we have. 
 

But most importantly, it will require a new ownership group and that time is closer than it was but not close enough to help this current crop of players  

In the short run, I think the best we can hope for is well run, well played baseball and hope we catch lightning in a bottle. 

And rather than think morbid thoughts. I will merely rejoice that the long miserable reign of the Angelos’ will soon enough be filed in the dustbin of history.