Angelos Claims He's Not Selling

[Pickles]

I think criticism of the Angelos family, and specific Angeloses, in the context of being terrible owners of the Baltimore Orioles is well-deserved.

The personal stuff is not; nobody here is in a position to really say anything about that.

When I was a kid I had a personal vitriol for Peter Angelos because he was such a terrible owner.  But then you grow up and the world becomes a little more complex.  If you grow up.  Being a bad baseball owner doesn't neccessarily make you a bad person.  The fact is, Peter Angelos has done a lot of charitable good work for the city and people of Baltimore.

[Frobby]

I think some people are really living in the past when it comes to assessing the Orioles’ place in the market.   It’s not an accident that the O’s receive compensatory draft picks and higher draft and international spending allotments.  It’s because MLB has judged them to be one of the ten smallest markets in MLB.  Forbes ranks them 22nd in value among all MLB franchises. THEY’RE A SMALL MARKET TEAM!!!

Now, are they so small that they have to run average payrolls akin to Tampa?  No.   But they’re much closer to being like Tampa than they are to being like NY, Boston, Chicago, LA and the like.  They’re in the lower third of the league.  Maybe if the team has a run of success and attendance spikes they can be at the bottom of the second third, but that’s about as good as it’s gonna get.  I expect the team’s payroll could jump into the 10-15 range at times, but it’s not going to stay there consistently, because the market won’t support it.   

Sorry, but those are the facts.   
 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Pickles said:

I think criticism of the Angelos family, and specific Angeloses, in the context of being terrible owners of the Baltimore Orioles is well-deserved.

The personal stuff is not; nobody here is in a position to really say anything about that.

When I was a kid I had a personal vitriol for Peter Angelos because he was such a terrible owner.  But then you grow up and the world becomes a little more complex.  If you grow up.  Being a bad baseball owner doesn't neccessarily make you a bad person.  The fact is, Peter Angelos has done a lot of charitable good work for the city and people of Baltimore.

No, being a bad person makes you a bad person and I have heard stories. On top of that, while I was working there (all those years ago), he didn’t exactly have the greatest reputation either.

I never met him, so I didn’t personally experience anything but I know people who did and I know people have worked closely with him in recent years..it’s always the same thing.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

No, being a bad person makes you a bad person and I have heard stories. On top of that, while I was working there (all those years ago), he didn’t exactly have the greatest reputation either.

I never met him, so I didn’t personally experience anything but I know people who did and I know people have worked closely with him in recent years..it’s always the same thing.

You know, I suspect it is possible some of your past co-workers might not have only positive things to say about you!    But of course that is not an entire indictment of your life.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s awful. I know some people that have worked close with him and he’s the type of person that no one has good things to say about.

I mean, he’s a lawyer and let’s face it, that’s not a profession with lots of “good guys”. Frobby is more of an exception than a rule.

 

We’re just a step above jewelry store owners.  

Anyway, John Angelos isn’t a lawyer.  He never passed the bar. I guess he did poorly on the section about taking advantage of little old ladies!

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think some people are really living in the past when it comes to assessing the Orioles’ place in the market.   It’s not an accident that the O’s receive compensatory draft picks and higher draft and international spending allotments.  It’s because MLB has judged them to be one of the ten smallest markets in MLB.  Forbes ranks them 22nd in value among all MLB franchises. THEY’RE A SMALL MARKET TEAM!!!

Now, are they so small that they have to run average payrolls akin to Tampa?  No.   But they’re much closer to being like Tampa than they are to being like NY, Boston, Chicago, LA and the like.  They’re in the lower third of the league.  Maybe if the team has a run of success and attendance spikes they can be at the bottom of the second third, but that’s about as good as it’s gonna get.  I expect the team’s payroll could jump into the 10-15 range at times, but it’s not going to stay there consistently, because the market won’t support it.   

Sorry, but those are the facts.   
 

They recently had payrolls as high as 170M. They may be “small market” but they can afford way more payroll than they do now.

I don’t need them to spend more than 150M and most years will be happy with it around 130M or so.

But do give me that you need to be in the 90M or less area. That’s total bullsh!t.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

We’re just a step above jewelry store owners.  

That’s probably accurate. 

[owknows]

For what it's worth, there isn't a thing wrong with criticizing the actions of a sports franchise. Or the actions of a sports franchise owner. But that's something considerably different than criticizing the person in obnoxiously caustic terms.

The most vocal critics of John Angelos don't know him. At best, they're guys who tell us they know a guy who knows a guy (which is obviously just tired BS).

At worst, they know nothing. Not of the individual. Not of the individual's finances. Not of the individual's life.

But they tell us nevertheless how certain they are that he's a despicable human being. That his works of charity are a farce. That he's Scrooge McDuck, flipping you the double bird while diving into piles of gold coins while refusing to make them happy by buying the free agents they covet.

The anonymity of the internet makes for some peculiar pathologies.

It's kinda sad really.

 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They recently had payrolls as high as 170M. They may be “small market” but they can afford way more payroll than they do now.

I don’t need them to spend more than 150M and most years will be happy with it around 130M or so.

But do give me that you need to be in the 90M or less area. That’s total bullsh!t.

I didn’t say that.  I said they could probably creep into the top 10-15 at times, just not all the time.  The year they had their highest payroll (2017), they were 11th in the league.

[Moose Milligan]

It's easy to bash anyone with the last name Angelos in regards to Orioles ownership.  That said, signing Elias and allowing him to set up his analytics team, his Dominican scouting department and facility has been good, even great.  It's really what this organization has lacked since PA purchased the team in '93; focusing on drafting and developing talent and being at the forefront of how baseball is thought of and analyzed.  The Orioles had been a joke from that perspective for far too long before Elias was hired.  

So I don't hate John for what he's done over the past 4-5 years because by and large, I like where this franchise is.  Yes, there are some things that didn't get done this offseason that I would have liked to have seen but I think we can all agree that this is most exciting time to have been a fan in a long time.  Like it or not, John Angelos has presided over that and he needs to be given some credit.  

It's certainly far from finished, there's a long way to go.  I'm confident that this team will stay in Baltimore, I don't bother getting worried about the stadium lease or Nashville rumors.  If we were the A's, I'd be worried, but we're not.  From my perspective, he needs to be willing to open up his wallet to retain the core of the young talent we have and bring in some free agents.  I remain a bit skeptical that he'll do both, but we'll see.

1 hour ago, owknows said:

I love how people think they're entitled to tell someone else how to run their business affairs, when they have  no stake, equity, sweat, or risk involved.

This is a bad take.  The Orioles are a publicly visible team, Angelos is a public figure.  He doesn't have to like it, but he is.  

There isn't any nobility in white knighting for John Angelos on a baseball message board.  

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I didn’t say that.  I said they could probably creep into the top 10-15 at times, just not all the time.  The year they had their highest payroll (2017), they were 11th in the league.

My point is that he’s acting and saying that they can’t. 
 

It’s just a lie. 

[owknows]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

This is a bad take.  The Orioles are a publicly visible team, Angelos is a public figure.  He doesn't have to like it, but he is.  

There isn't any nobility in white knighting for John Angelos on a baseball message board.  

My take has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of Angelos.

My point is that liking a business... of any kind... doesn't entitle you to demand access to the books. No matter how publicly visible the business is.

You want access to the books? Buy a stake.

Otherwise.. you're entitled to doodlysquat.

 

 

 

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, owknows said:

My take has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of Angelos.

My point is that liking a business... of any kind... doesn't entitle you to demand access to the books. No matter how publicly visible the business is.

You want access to the books? Buy a stake.

Otherwise.. you're entitled to doodlysquat.

 

 

 

I think Angelos is the one who was being a bit of a jerk and offered Connolly to come in -along with the rest of the media- and he'd open the books for them to see.  I don't believe Connolly demanded to see anything.

 

 

[owknows]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think Angelos is the one who was being a bit of a jerk and offered Connolly to come in -along with the rest of the media- and he'd open the books for them to see.  I don't believe Connolly demanded to see anything.

 

 

Yeah.. I conceded that point at the beginning of the conversation.

I think I used the words, silly, self-serving, adolescent, and ham-fisted.

but I wasn't talking about Connolly demanding access to the books.

I was talking about several posters in this thread.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by owknows

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

My point is that he’s acting and saying that they can’t. 
 

It’s just a lie. 

I see it as more of a slight exaggeration than a lie.  

Milwaukee ran a $128 mm payroll last year.  Cleveland ran a $151 mm payroll in 2019.   They can do those things, just not every year.