Westburg is near ready

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Pickles said:

I honestly in the 15 or so years of coming here can't remember a single player that elicited so much conversation an visceral reaction.  It's odd.

True, but I'm not sure the Orioles have ever spent $8 million on a declining player on what they think is a playoff contending team when they had two major league options on the 40-man (Urias and Vavra(, and two top 100 prospects (by some lists) in Westburg and Ortiz who play the same position. 

Anyway, we've discussed this ad nauseum and everyone knows what camp they're in at this point. 

As for Westburg, I'm hoping he tears things up in AAA and forces his way onto the team in an everyday role. There is actually a pathway for that to happen that doesn't involve benching Frazier. Westburg could end up the everyday 3B with Henderson taking over SS duties on an everyday basis. This would require a move with Urias or Mateo though.

Now that Elias is going to start having his prospects as options for everyday PAs, he's going to have to learn to trust them because his resources are always going to be tight as long as an Angelos is owner. 

If he's not sure whether Vavra/Urias/Westburg/Ortiz could hold down a major league job at or near major league minimum (MLM), he at least has to learn not to overpay for a 30-something rebound player at that position. 

Let's all be honest, including the pro Frazier signing people, would you be upset if Westburg was the opening day starting 2B tomorrow? I doubt anyone would be saying, "You know what Elias should have done instead, give Frazier $8 million to be the opening day 2b."

[NCRaven]

Every team's fan chat board has a rant about some move the front office move.  This is not an Orioles or Elias issue.  Frazier was an insurance policy that wasn't really necessary.

[emmett16]

Someone has to get traded soon.  I thought for sure a trade would have happened in the off-season.  There just isn’t enough room.  I hope Westburg isn’t the guy, but fear he might be.  If they could some how trade Urias & Vavra that would open up the door for Westburg who can play all 3 IF positions.   Norby is right behind him and will be making noise in AAA all year.  
 

I’m neutral on him being optioned to AAA. From the players/fan pov it stinks.  It makes sense from the business side to keep him down until he gets the extra year.  I’m going to be patient with it knowing he is likely to get close to 500PAs in the big leagues this year.  

[Frobby]

I was not pro-Frazier, but probably less anti-Frazier than a lot of folks.  No, I would not be upset if Westburg was our starting 2B right now.   In fact, I’d be excited to see it.  Frazier doesn’t excite me but I still expect him to be a significant upgrade over Odor.  

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

True, but I'm not sure the Orioles have ever spent $8 million on a declining player on what they think is a playoff contending team when they had two major league options on the 40-man (Urias and Vavra(, and two top 100 prospects (by some lists) in Westburg and Ortiz who play the same position. 

Anyway, we've discussed this ad nauseum and everyone knows what camp they're in at this point. 

As for Westburg, I'm hoping he tears things up in AAA and forces his way onto the team in an everyday role. There is actually a pathway for that to happen that doesn't involve benching Frazier. Westburg could end up the everyday 3B with Henderson taking over SS duties on an everyday basis. This would require a move with Urias or Mateo though.

Now that Elias is going to start having his prospects as options for everyday PAs, he's going to have to learn to trust them because his resources are always going to be tight as long as an Angelos is owner. 

If he's not sure whether Vavra/Urias/Westburg/Ortiz could hold down a major league job at or near major league minimum (MLM), he at least has to learn not to overpay for a 30-something rebound player at that position. 

Let's all be honest, including the pro Frazier signing people, would you be upset if Westburg was the opening day starting 2B tomorrow?

After getting eyes on Westburg this spring I am more in favor than ever of him being the OD starter.

I expect him to be up soon and I expect him to get significant playing time in the bigs this year.

If he doesn't, particularly if Frazier keeps getting run out there if he's not performing well, I'll pick up my pitchfork.

[emmett16]

One thing I’m sure of, is that Westburg will hit and will force the FO to make a decision.   

[Tony-OH]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I was not pro-Frazier, but probably less anti-Frazier than a lot of folks.  No, I would not be upset if Westburg was our starting 2B right now.   In fact, I’d be excited to see it.  Frazier doesn’t excite me but I still expect him to be a significant upgrade over Odor.  

Planting your flag on the "I still expect him to be a significant upgrade over Odor" hill is probably one of the safer hills to plant said flag!

My counter argument is I would be happy to plant my flag on the "All of the four 40-man roster options available this offseason for major league minimum or slightly more would be a significant upgrade over Odor" hill.

[Jammer7]

I was not, and am not, “pro-Frazier signing.” I simply am not ready to throw bricks at Elias for it. I assume there is a big reason they believe in him and his ability to turn things around. Frazier has looked very good defensively, and weak offensively. I was shocked at how much he signed for. We’ll see if he can work through some things and come out the better end of things. How long am I willing to wait and see? It depends on how everything else is going. If others are hitting well, and our record is good, I can see him getting until mid-June to figure it out. A hitter needs time to make changes and have them become a reaction without thought during their process. 

I would love to see Westburg start on Opening Day. I do not think he is even an average 2B with the new rules, though. I like him much better at 3B. 

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Planting your flag on the "I still expect him to be a significant upgrade over Odor" hill is probably one of the safer hills to plant said flag!

My counter argument is I would be happy to plant my flag on the "All of the four 40-man roster options available this offseason for major league minimum or slightly more would be a significant upgrade over Odor" hill.

That’s probably true, too.  

[Hank Scorpio]

3 hours ago, Pickles said:

I honestly in the 15 or so years of coming here can't remember a single player that elicited so much conversation an visceral reaction.  It's odd.

Mark Teixiera.

[ChuckS]

Frazier hate hasn't approached Odor levels yet. 

There were daily threads on Odor from July through August of last year, when he was still being run out there everyday. 

I don't think we've seen anything yet though because Frazier has yet to play a game that counts for us. If we get into May/June and Frazier isn't hitting while still playing nearly everyday, it'll be meltdown city here. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by ChuckS

[vab]

It does seem weird that Elias used $8 million of his very limited funds on somebody like Frazier with so many middle infield prospects in the high minors but there must be something we're not privy to. I mean, if you're good enough to build the consensus No. 1 farm system in baseball and bring a team from 47 to 83 wins in less than five years before most of those prospects even arrive in the majors, do you just turn stupid on this one thing? I just have to give Elias the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. 

[Can_of_corn]

22 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Mark Teixiera.

Davis.

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, vab said:

It does seem weird that Elias used $8 million of his very limited funds on somebody like Frazier with so many middle infield prospects in the high minors but there must be something we're not privy to. I mean, if you're good enough to build the consensus No. 1 farm system in baseball and bring a team from 47 to 83 wins in less than five years before most of those prospects even arrive in the majors, do you just turn stupid on this one thing? I just have to give Elias the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. 

I honestly think it's just because he bats lefty.

 

[Tony-OH]

8 minutes ago, vab said:

It does seem weird that Elias used $8 million of his very limited funds on somebody like Frazier with so many middle infield prospects in the high minors but there must be something we're not privy to. I mean, if you're good enough to build the consensus No. 1 farm system in baseball and bring a team from 47 to 83 wins in less than five years before most of those prospects even arrive in the majors, do you just turn stupid on this one thing? I just have to give Elias the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. 

Personally, I think it's a different skill set. Elias has shown the ability to draft and develop amateur talent and has built a consensus top 1-4 farm system under the current slotting system and technology advancements that has taken away a lot of the "hard factors" when drafting a player, particularly a college player. That skill set is to get and horde as much of that talent as he can get his preverbal hands on.

It's entirely different skillset trying to take that talent, and augment it with major league talent in the offseason. This offseaso is the first offseason we have to judge Elias off of because this is the first offseason where he himself has said it's about winning at the major league level now.

Understanding the market is a big part of that, and that includes the value and depth of your prospects at certain positions as well as other team's needs. Most of us feel he completely misread the market on Frazier, especially when you consider his in house talent at the position of need. 

What we also don't know is how good of a negotiator Elias is with free agents. He's never signed a player to a multi-year ten figure contract yet and that includes potentially extending his top young talent. I'm not saying he's bad at it, but I am saying that we don't have the data to know one way or the other yet. 

The Hernaiz-Irvin trade was his first real prospects for established major league players trade and while I do like that trade, it would have been better if it was a cherry on top kinda of move vs his best move of the offseason. 

Not every GM will be good at all things and the truth is, we just don't know how good Elias will be at putting together a roster that will compete year in and year out and just because he's good at drafting and development, doesn't necessarily mean that skill translates.