Joey Ortiz 2023

[Moose Milligan]

Should be up and playing instead of Mateo. 

[Alasdaire]

33 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Should be up and playing instead of Mateo. 

I would get it if Ortiz was like Westburg and was mediocre in the field. In that case, you could make the argument that Mateo's defense has value. But Ortiz happens to be one of the few prospects in baseball who could realistically reproduce what Jorge does in the field.

Even if they like Mateo's speed/leadership, they could get that out of him from the bench. People are acting like the front office has to make a decision between Ortiz and Westburg, but I think that's a false choice. How about making a decision between Mateo and Frazier? They're the two worst hitters on the team and don't factor into the long-term plans.

[Brooks The Great]

13 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

Even if they like Mateo's speed/leadership, they could get that out of him from the bench. People are acting like the front office has to make a decision between Ortiz and Westburg, but I think that's a false choice. How about making a decision between Mateo and Frazier? They're the two worst hitters on the team and don't factor into the long-term plans.

Agreed. Frazier is also the team's worst defender. He's a liability at this point - it's time to call Ortiz back up and give him regular PT at 2B and 3B along with Westburg. Gunnar has really settled in at SS and should stay there for a while.

[ChosenOne21]

4 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Agreed. Frazier is also the team's worst defender. He's a liability at this point - it's time to call Ortiz back up and give him regular PT at 2B and 3B along with Westburg. Gunnar has really settled in at SS and should stay there for a while.

But what about Elias's fanatical obsession with platoon advantage?

For all his good qualities, he seems determined to protect certain hitters from facing a same-handed pitcher whether or not there's any track record of trouble. You have to wonder if that's part of the reason the lefty swinging Frazier is still on the team over Ortiz. I mean, the average platoon split is like .017 points of wOBA for righties and .027 for lefties. And it's easy to make conclusions based on a small sample size of plate appearances versus a left-handed pitcher, but really I would expect most players and prospects to be fine against pitchers of either hand. O'Hearn likely needs a platoon mate. Henderson, Stowers, and Cowser likely don't.

He also seems to hold on to his veteran signings too long. I wonder if he's worried it will be harder for him to sign players in the future if he's always cutting them mid-season, I dunno.

[Otter]

40 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

But what about Elias's fanatical obsession with platoon advantage?

For all his good qualities, he seems determined to protect certain hitters from facing a same-handed pitcher whether or not there's any track record of trouble. You have to wonder if that's part of the reason the lefty swinging Frazier is still on the team over Ortiz. I mean, the average platoon split is like .017 points of wOBA for righties and .027 for lefties. And it's easy to make conclusions based on a small sample size of plate appearances versus a left-handed pitcher, but really I would expect most players and prospects to be fine against pitchers of either hand. O'Hearn likely needs a platoon mate. Henderson, Stowers, and Cowser likely don't.

He also seems to hold on to his veteran signings too long. I wonder if he's worried it will be harder for him to sign players in the future if he's always cutting them mid-season, I dunno.

I think it's more that Elias doesn't want to mess too much with the veterans while we're winning.  And I'm also sure Hyde is in his ear telling him how much Frazier means to the team outside of the offensive and defensive numbers..

[Paul in Virginia]

 

 

[Alasdaire]

Many of us were pretty frustrated that Westburg was being kept down after 300 AAA plate appearances this year as a 24 year old with a .940 OPS. And rightfully so. But it's arguably worse that Joey is being kept down there after 200 AAA plate appearances as a 25 year old with a .970 OPS and maybe the best defense in the organization. Jordan did have 400 AAA PAs last year too, so hopefully Joey isn't in store for that.

[ShoelesJoe]

I think Ortiz will be on a major league roster by the end of August. Whether it will be our major league roster is the question. 

[Tony-OH]

Ortiz is doing what good major leaguers do. He's proving he's too good for AAA. 

The best thing is he knows he belongs in the big leagues but he's not sulking, he's just tearing it up while playing great defense.

[baltfan]

14 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Ortiz is doing what good major leaguers do. He's proving he's too good for AAA. 

The best thing is he knows he belongs in the big leagues but he's not sulking, he's just tearing it up while playing great defense.

Agreed and if we are thinking about Mateo and Frazier as bench guys now, it makes little sense to bring him up.   It could be a small sample size, but Frazier has been undeniably clutch this season  and great of the bench late.  Mateo has game changing speed and despite the play yesterday is as good as Ortiz at SS.  Ortiz will likely finish the year in AAA or be traded.  Next year, there will surely be a spot for him with Frazier gone. 

[RZNJ]

Ortiz continues to show that last year was no fluke.   His defense is without question top of the line at all three infield spots.   The one question is what lies ahead for him.   He looks to have a bright future ahead.   I have little doubt he’s a starting 2B or SS in the majors as soon as next year.  Could be with us.   I could also see him as a super utility guy who plays pretty much everyday but plays all 3 spots.   He’s the only one I think could push Henderson back to 3B full time.

[Bemorewins]

14 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

Many of us were pretty frustrated that Westburg was being kept down after 300 AAA plate appearances this year as a 24 year old with a .940 OPS. And rightfully so. But it's arguably worse that Joey is being kept down there after 200 AAA plate appearances as a 25 year old with a .970 OPS and maybe the best defense in the organization. Jordan did have 400 AAA PAs last year too, so hopefully Joey isn't in store for that.

From what you have seen of Gunnar’s defense at SS lately, what would be the justification/need to upgrade/replace him? I know long term some say he may “outgrow” the position, but Ripken never did. For now, I struggle to find legitimate complaints about what Gunnar is doing. 

[RZNJ]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

From what you have seen of Gunnar’s defense at SS lately, what would be the justification/need to upgrade/replace him? I know long term some say he may “outgrow” the position, but Ripken never did. For now, I struggle to find legitimate complaints about what Gunnar is doing. 

Agreed.  Gunnar is a plus defensive SS.  There’s no need for him not to be the SS.   The only player I could see him moving back to 3rd full time is if Mateo turns back into the April version again or if the Orioles decide that Ortiz is a regular.   Even then, I think Ortiz might be the 2B.   Ortiz makes everything look easy at SS.   I don’t know if or how much better he is than Henderson but there’s something special about the way he makes it look. The kid is a magician with the glove.

[Alasdaire]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

From what you have seen of Gunnar’s defense at SS lately, what would be the justification/need to upgrade/replace him? I know long term some say he may “outgrow” the position, but Ripken never did. For now, I struggle to find legitimate complaints about what Gunnar is doing. 

The idea is that there could be more total value from Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B than vice versa. Pipeline says this about Joey:

Quote

He has great hands, outstanding actions and plus-plus instincts that combine with an excellent internal clock to make him close to an elite-level defender. He has a strong and accurate arm just to add to the package and has not slowed down even though he added a lot of strength to his frame during the shutdown

Sounds like that was written a couple of years ago, in which case he has outperformed even that write-up. He's a blue chip defensive shortstop, which makes him one of the best defenders in baseball.

I don't want to put a ceiling on Gunnar because he has done nothing but smash through them for years now, but if you asked me a month ago, I wouldn't have described Gunnar as having range or hands like that. What does stand out about Gunnar is his arm. And even though he's about average fast for a shortstop, he would be very fast for a third baseman. So I think if his responsibilities were covering the line/charging balls--and in both cases whipping the ball across the diamond--he could be a GG third baseman. Could he do that at short? Seems less likely to me than both him doing that at third or Joey doing that at short. Could Joey be a GG 3B? Probably, but it's much better to have a GG SS.

And none of this is even talking about Jackson Holliday or Jorge Mateo. If Ortiz/Holliday/Mateo didn't exist, then there would be present and future need at short, and Gunnar playing there would be an obvious choice. But they do have those guys. And if Gunnar is eventually going to be moved to third, I think it pays to assign a player their position and let them settle.

I'm assuming that the O's plan to keep Joey. Keith Law ranked him as a top-35 prospect a few days ago. You don't trade that imo. An infield of 1B Mayo 2B Holliday 3B Gunnar SS Ortiz has a very high defensive ceiling.

All that being said, Gunnar emerging in the field recently is a joy to watch and this is an awesome problem to have.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

The idea is that there could be more total value from Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B than vice versa. Pipeline says this about Joey:

Sounds like that was written a couple of years ago, in which case he has outperformed even that write-up. He's a blue chip defensive shortstop, which makes him one of the best defenders in baseball.

I don't want to put a ceiling on Gunnar because he has done nothing but smash through them for years now, but if you asked me a month ago, I wouldn't have described Gunnar as having range or hands like that. What does stand out about Gunnar is his arm. And even though he's about average fast for a shortstop, he would be very fast for a third baseman. So I think if his responsibilities were covering the line/charging balls--and in both cases whipping the ball across the diamond--he could be a GG third baseman. Could he do that at short? Seems less likely to me than both him doing that at third or Joey doing that at short. Could Joey be a GG 3B? Probably, but it's much better to have a GG SS.

And none of this is even talking about Jackson Holliday or Jorge Mateo. If Ortiz/Holliday/Mateo didn't exist, then there would be present and future need at short, and Gunnar playing there would be an obvious choice. But they do have those guys. And if Gunnar is eventually going to be moved to third, I think it pays to assign a player their position and let them settle.

I'm assuming that the O's plan to keep Joey. Keith Law ranked him as a top-35 prospect a few days ago. You don't trade that imo. An infield of 1B Mayo 2B Holliday 3B Gunnar SS Ortiz has a very high defensive ceiling.

All that being said, Gunnar emerging in the field recently is a joy to watch and this is an awesome problem to have.

Mateo should not be a factor now let alone for future consideration in terms of how you handle Gunnar. IMO Gunnar is obviously the most talented of our org infielders (probably along with Holliday though Gunnar's ceiling may be a bit higher). I see no reason not to allow Gunnar to stay at SS until he shows that he cannot handle. I'm a firm believer in building your team around your best/most talented players and staffing out from there. Gunnar looks like a future superstar player. The only other INF with that kind of potential may be Holliday.

IMO Gunnar should be given as many consistent reps as possible so that he can continue to grow into the position. Obviously Holliday will be given a place in the INF as well. As far as who mans, the other spot it could be Ortiz or Westburg? But neither is nearly as important to the success of the franchise as the first two IMO.