Who is the best defensive SS? Gunnar, Ortiz or Holliday?

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don't dispute any of this but we're not considering that some of this is organization-speak. If there was any chance, even the slightest, that they would ever move the player in exchange for player(s) who could address other position(s) of need, they'd want to be consistent in their label of the player they drafted.

If you draft a guy as, say a SS, only to turn around and say "we actually think he fits better at first base" then you might be conceding that your initial evaluation of the player was off or that they are not as valuable as initially communicated. 

If they are completely set in stone that Holliday is their Shortstop of the Future, why was he playing games at 2B in Aberdeen?

Of course I'm not suggesting that they are looking to trade Jackson Holliday or that they are entertaining the idea. I'm simply suggesting that they're going to do everything to promote their players in the most positive light. 

They werent promoting him (in the context you are talking about) when they drafted him and when they could have taken anyone they want. They had no reason to “promote him” there.

Elias doesn’t lie to the media. He basically tells you what he is thinking and why he does something. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Most players are happy to play in the major leagues.  If the Orioles have a young star who is a more gifted SS defensively at SS and start playing Holliday at 2B I hope he’s smart enough to put 2+2 and come up with 4.

I don't know if you are or have been an a high level athlete before. I have been in a different sport (not baseball). Superstar talents/high draft pick type players with superstar expectations most often are not merely just happy to be there. Almost all of them are built much differently than that and have these things called egos (which drive them to strive toward greatness/stardom).

Remember how great Manny Machado was at 3B here? He still wanted and believed that he could play SS all the way up until he became an FA and signed with the Padres. SS is probably the position where guys can get paid the most on the open market as it is the most valued. Please know that all players know that.

Holliday may very well "buy-in" and accept playing 2B (especially if he succeeds there) but know in the back of his mind somewhere, he will most likely always want a chance to play there at least until he hits FA.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

I don't know if you are or have been an a high level athlete before. I have been in a different sport (not baseball). Superstar talents/high draft pick type players with superstar expectations most often are not merely just happy to be there. Almost all of them are built much differently than that and have these things called egos (which drive them to strive toward greatness/stardom).

Remember how great Manny Machado was at 3B here? He still wanted and believed that he could play SS all the way up until he became an FA and signed with the Padres. SS is probably the position where guys can get paid the most on the open market as it is the most valued. Please know that all players know that.

Holliday may very well "buy-in" and accept playing 2B (especially if he succeeds there) but know in the back of his mind somewhere, he will most likely always want a chance to play there at least until he hits FA.

Sure, and Gunnar sees himself as a SS.  I have no doubt that both Holliday and Henderson have egos.   I also have little doubt that it would not cause any big problem if they told Gunnar he was the 3B and Holliday the SS or if Henderson was the SS and Holliday.   There is a team dynamic involved. In the end the players and teammates know who should play where.   

[Bemorewins]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Sure, and Gunnar sees himself as a SS.  I have no doubt that both Holliday and Henderson have egos.   I also have little doubt that it would not cause any big problem if they told Gunnar he was the 3B and Holliday the SS or if Henderson was the SS and Holliday.   There is a team dynamic involved. In the end the players and teammates know who should play where.   

I don't disagree with any of this.

[banks703]

53 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But as long as he has the range and arm to play the position and he is good to great with the glove there, I think he’s the SS long term.

Sure but I don't think that you're going to find ANYONE that describes him as great right now. Some might suggest that he's good. I've seen A LOT of him and I would describe him as not going to hurt you there. Can that change? Obviously yes, he can get better but I just don't see him ending up at SS and I am not sure that his arm plays any better at third. I think he's destined for 2B, which is perfectly fine given the other guys who can stick at SS. I would rather he be an elite-elite 2B than a decent SS. 

[banks703]

41 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They werent promoting him (in the context you are talking about) when they drafted him 

 

Of course they were. I am usually on your side, buddy but it's naïve to suggest this. Leading up to the draft there was a lot of speculation on who they would take. A lot of evaluators had them taking Drew Jones and a lot thought that they would go under-slot. They're going to justify their pick however they feel whether any of us like it or not but more importantly they're going to make comments publicly that best support the player. Have you ever met a new parent who doesn't claim how cute their baby is? Do you ever hear that person come back a year later and say that they are wrong, their baby is actually ugly? 

I don't think that we'll find anyone who would argue that they took the wrong guy 1:1 but of course they said whatever they said to justify their pick. 

Someone posted here (I didn't look for it but I'm sure it can be found) that Jackson Holliday said something along the lines that he doesn't consider himself a Shortstop. If that's true, I think we can toss out the Boras factor or that JH has some leverage with the org that he has to play SS or whatever other nonsense is floating out there. 

If his quickest path to the ML roster is 2B and he provides the club the most value by playing 2B, I will bet my life savings that is where he ends up playing. 

[Number5]

Uptown problems.  This controversy over which of our young studs will play where as our bright future unfolds is the envy of the rest of MLB.  I'm confident it will all work itself out.  For now, I'm just enjoying it.

[Number5]

26 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Have you ever met a new parent who doesn't claim how cute their baby is? Do you ever hear that person come back a year later and say that they are wrong, their baby is actually ugly? 

[wildcard]

Gunnar has spent the last three  and  a half months establishing himself at SS.   Slowly overtaking Mateo.      He has established himself defensively at SS and hitting vs right handed pitching.  But not vs lefties pitchers.   Anyone that wants to take his SS job is going to have to out play him at SS defensively and offensively.

They are not going to hand SS to Holliday unless he beats out Gunnar.   And with Holliday just beginning to play at AA, he has a lot to prove with at least 200 PA at AA and then  200 PA at AAA before he even gets a shot at SS in the majors.  That will not happen this year and probably  for at least a month or two into 2024 before he gets promoted to the majors.   I don't care how special he  is.   Gunnar had to do that and so will Holliday.

Ortiz may be as good as Gunnar defensively at SS plus or minus.  And once Mateo and Frazier are gone (whenever that happens) Ortiz may take over SS vs lefty pitchers.   That is Ortiz' opportunity to play SS.  While Gunnar tries to improve vs lefties.

I don't see  Elias trading any of these three until Holliday establishes himself in the majors.

Urias plays a big role as veteran at 3B/2B.   We have seen that Elias does not like to have too many rookies (unestablished players) breaking into the majors at the same time.   That is why Urias stays through the 2023 season and possibly into 2024.

Westburg:   Our first glimpse at him seems to show he is a good hitter who can play well at both 3B/2B/DH.    He will try over the next 2 1/2 months to prove he belongs in the majors.

I think Gunnar, Holliday, Ortiz, Urias and Westburg all stay through this season.  If Elias wants to trade an infielder it will be Norby, Frazier and/or Mateo IMO.   They can be added to a package that could include Stowers and/or Haskin.

Edited July 12, 2023 by wildcard

[Sports Guy]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

Of course they were. I am usually on your side, buddy but it's naïve to suggest this. Leading up to the draft there was a lot of speculation on who they would take. A lot of evaluators had them taking Drew Jones and a lot thought that they would go under-slot. They're going to justify their pick however they feel whether any of us like it or not but more importantly they're going to make comments publicly that best support the player. Have you ever met a new parent who doesn't claim how cute their baby is? Do you ever hear that person come back a year later and say that they are wrong, their baby is actually ugly? 

I don't think that we'll find anyone who would argue that they took the wrong guy 1:1 but of course they said whatever they said to justify their pick. 

Someone posted here (I didn't look for it but I'm sure it can be found) that Jackson Holliday said something along the lines that he doesn't consider himself a Shortstop. If that's true, I think we can toss out the Boras factor or that JH has some leverage with the org that he has to play SS or whatever other nonsense is floating out there. 

If his quickest path to the ML roster is 2B and he provides the club the most value by playing 2B, I will bet my life savings that is where he ends up playing. 

Yea I think you are completely wrong. The Orioles took Holliday because that’s who they preferred. It’s not like they preferred Jones but took Holliday and then tried to justify why they took him.

They didn’t need to sell Holliday on anyone. He was a consensus top guy and there were enough questions around Jones where there was no definitive #1 guy.

 

[Frobby]

13 hours ago, wildcard said:

Interesting that Gunnar, Ortiz and Mateo may all be considered better defensive SS than Holliday at this point.   Holliday's bat may be ahead of his glove right now.  I wonder if his defensive development keeps him in the minors because it is not as good as who is starting at SS for the O's?

A move to 2B has been suggested but is that what the O's will want to do with him?

Of course Holliday is only 19 at this point so as he fills out and gets more experience he will probably get better at SS.  The time table for this will be interesting.

If his bat plays well they will find a place for him.

The comparison with Mateo (927 pro games at SS) and Ortiz (357 college and pro games at SS) probably isn’t fair just due to the wide disparity in games played at a high level.  As to Gunnar, he was erratic at SS in 2021, and way better in 2022 due to work he put in with the coaches and over the winter.  There’s every reason to think Holliday will continue improving with more work and experience.  Would his defense keep him down for all of 2024, even if his bat is ready?  I tend to doubt it.  But I see no reason to get ahead of ourselves anyway.  Let’s see what he does on both sides of the ball at Bowie the rest of this year, and then we can worry about 2024.

(In case anyone is wondering, I think it’s highly unlikely that Holliday ends this year in Norfolk, no matter what he does at Bowie.)
 

 

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

They didn’t need to sell Holliday on anyone

 

I didn't suggest that they needed to sell anyone on him. In fact, what I wrote was that they justify their selection of him however they want regardless of how any of us feel about it. You're reading what I write and interpreting it how you are just to support your position that he is the SS of the future in Baltimore, a thought to which I disagree. 

Of course they're going to talk-up their prospects. Have you ever heard Mike Elias say blatant negative things about their players? I haven't but if you have please provide a link to the comments. Listen to what they've been saying about Mateo for the last 2.5 months. "We think he's close to turning it around" etc. etc. They're going to put an Orioles spin on every comment. Every organization does it. The Orioles are no different in that regard. 

Holliday is a big part of their future plans but the truth is that he could never play an inning as an Oriole. His value might never be higher than it is right now as the top prospect in baseball. Do I think that they will trade him? No, I do not think that they will trade him but I do think that they will do what they feel is in the best interest of the organization. He's obviously in their plans but if someone comes along with an offer that they can't refuse, they will trade him, as they will trade anyone else in the organization if it puts the organization in a better position. Holliday may very well be MORE valuable to other organizations who don't have Gunnar Hendersons and Jordan Westburgs in their system.

If Atlanta offered Strider or Bryce Elder for Holliday straight up, would the O's do it? I promise if the Marlins offered Eury Perez the O's would make that deal. I think that they would trade the top prospect in baseball for established, legitimate TOR, cost-controlled pitching. To be fair, I think that they would probably consider doing those deals for Gunnar. The biggest difference between Gunnar and Holliday being that Gunnar is excelling at the Major League level whereas Holliday is being promoted to Bowie. I think they would probably pull the trigger on either of them if it landed them a bonafide Ace. 

I don't think that anyone is off-limits and I do believe that Elias will do and say anything to promote their product. I guarantee that he is ALWAYS listening to offers. So, why would he say anything about the top prospect in baseball if it would in any way reduce the value of the player? He wouldn't. 

Again, I am not suggesting that they are trading Jackson Holliday. I'm not even arguing that Holliday couldn't become a better player than Gunnar and end up at SS (he won't by the way) I'm simply stating that Mike Elias is going to continue to say positive things about Jackson Holliday for a multitude of reasons but if for no other reason than to protect the value of his asset/product. 

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

The comparison with Mateo (927 pro games at SS) and Ortiz (357 college and pro games at SS) probably isn’t fair just due to the wide disparity in games played at a high level.  

 

 

Agreed. Mateo has proven his defensive ability at the Major League level, which cannot be argued. I've seen a lot of Joey Ortiz and to me he looks as rangy as Jorge, albeit without the pure straight-line speed that Jorge has. He looks a little more sure-handed than Jorge but doesn't have the truly elite arm strength of Jorge although I'd put Joey's throwing accuracy a tick above Jorge. 

Jorge can do things on the field that almost no other shortstops in baseball can do. I don't think that's an exaggeration by any stretch. Joey isn't on quite that level from a position of athleticism but overall he is every bit as good as Jorge as a defender. 

[wildcard]

7 hours ago, Frobby said:

The comparison with Mateo (927 pro games at SS) and Ortiz (357 college and pro games at SS) probably isn’t fair just due to the wide disparity in games played at a high level.  As to Gunnar, he was erratic at SS in 2021, and way better in 2022 due to work he put in with the coaches and over the winter.  There’s every reason to think Holliday will continue improving with more work and experience.  Would his defense keep him down for all of 2024, even if his bat is ready?  I tend to doubt it.  But I see no reason to get ahead of ourselves anyway.  Let’s see what he does on both sides of the ball at Bowie the rest of this year, and then we can worry about 2024.

(In case anyone is wondering, I think it’s highly unlikely that Holliday ends this year in Norfolk, no matter what he does at Bowie.)
 

 

The question is not would the keep Holliday down all 2024 if his bat was ready.   They probably would not.  The question is if Holliday's defense at SS is not has good as Gunnars will they move Holliday to 2B?

[Roll Tide]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

The question is not would the keep Holliday down all 2024 if his bat was ready.   They probably would not.  The question is if Holliday's defense at SS is not has good as Gunnars will they move Holliday to 2B?

No/yes