Who is the best defensive SS? Gunnar, Ortiz or Holliday?

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

You’re last sentence makes it sound like we have to “ask” Holliday if its okay if someone else is the SS.

I'm not saying that, but I am saying it would be better if we have his buy-in if a position move was deemed necessary. 

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I'm not saying that, but I am saying it would be better if we have his buy-in if a position move was deemed necessary. 

I certainly hope he’s not the type of personality that we would seek or need his “buy in”.    

[Sports Guy]

When the Os drafted Holliday, the stated reason by Elias, in terms of what was a deciding factor between hiM and the others, was that he is a true SS.

He did that knowing, at the time, he didn’t have a real CF prospect in the system(Jones) and that maybe there were some more advanced bats at lesser positions.

He also knew that he had an elite guy in Ortiz and that Gunnar was showing he could handle SS.

I just think the writing is on the wall for what they want to do. We can debate whether that’s what should be the case but I just feel that they already know that is where Holliday ends up.

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I certainly hope he’s not the type of personality that we would seek or need his “buy in”.    

The hard part is getting Boras to buy into it.

[geschinger]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

When the Os drafted Holliday, the stated reason by Elias, in terms of what was a deciding factor between hiM and the others, was that he is a true SS.

He did that knowing, at the time, he didn’t have a real CF prospect in the system(Jones) and that maybe there were some more advanced bats at lesser positions.

He also knew that he had an elite guy in Ortiz and that Gunnar was showing he could handle SS.

I just think the writing is on the wall for what they want to do. We can debate whether that’s what should be the case but I just feel that they already know that is where Holliday ends up.

 

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Drafting a true SS gives positional flexibility to play 3B/2B.  Same with all the CF drafted this year.  I think the plan is he will be the SS but they are getting him time at 2B and recently he got his first game at 3B.  I don't think they'd hesitate to play him elsewhere if there was a clear better SS option.  I don't think he's going to be given the Jeter treatment if they have an ARod alternative. 

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

When the Os drafted Holliday, the stated reason by Elias, in terms of what was a deciding factor between hiM and the others, was that he is a true SS.

He did that knowing, at the time, he didn’t have a real CF prospect in the system(Jones) and that maybe there were some more advanced bats at lesser positions.

He also knew that he had an elite guy in Ortiz and that Gunnar was showing he could handle SS.

I just think the writing is on the wall for what they want to do. We can debate whether that’s what should be the case but I just feel that they already know that is where Holliday ends up.

 

The logic, or lack of it, is astounding.   Of course, the belief when drafting Holliday was that he was a true SS and could play there at the ML level.   That was part of the value.   Part of that value is that if you have to move him to 2B or 3B you still most likely have a plus defensive player.   To take the fact that he was drafted as a true SS and that the plan was set in stone that he was the future SS doesn’t pass the logic test.   My sense is that Gunnar is the current SS and the future SS and is just a physically more gifted SS although, again, I haven’t seen Holliday extensively and maybe his arm gets stronger.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, geschinger said:

I don't think that's necessarily true.  Drafting a true SS gives positional flexibility to play 3B/2B.  Same with all the CF drafted this year.  I think the plan is he will be the SS but they are getting him time at 2B and recently he got his first game at 3B.  I don't think they'd hesitate to play him elsewhere if there was a clear better SS option.  I don't think he's going to be given the Jeter treatment if they have an ARod alternative. 

You definitely could be correct. Like I said, maybe Ortiz just completely wows them and they say they have to keep Him there.

Im just highly skeptical that they will do that. I know the team values defense and obviously, if the reports are wrong and Holliday doesn’t look like a SS, things change.

But as long as he has the range and arm to play the position and he is good to great with the glove there, I think he’s the SS long term.

[Bemorewins]

14 minutes ago, banks703 said:

This is my feeling. If Gunnar (who is one of the cornerstones of the franchise) continues to play well defensively at SS and they move Ortiz because of Gunnar's ability to stick there, the org is NOT going to move Gunnar for a lesser defensive player. It's just not going to happen. This isn't the Yankees letting (the face of their franchise) Jeter stick at SS over A-Rod, who was the appreciably better player.

Could Holliday mature and become an even better player than Gunnar? Sure, that's possible however I do not see that happening. Holliday was getting reps at 2B before the promotion to Bowie, where he is likely to play pretty exclusively at SS given the lack of talent at the position there. I maintain that Holliday ends up at 2B in Baltimore and I can definitely see  them promote his bat for a playoff run, though not likely this year. 

Internally could they be deciding between Gunnar and JH and move one for pitching? Imagine the return that they could receive for either of them. I don't think that they have to do that and feel that they shouldn't but they certainly could do it. I don't feel that they have to choose between a soon to be 20 year old, current number 1 prospect and a recently turned 22 year old, previous number 1 prospect. 

I actually think that JW is the guy who will get moved. I think that they promoted him to showcase his ability to play at the ML level, which he is doing. The power numbers aren't there yet but they'll come soon enough. I do wonder if they move on from JW what impact that could have on the Cowser/Gunnar dynamic. Those three seem to be pretty close. 

They have an embarrassment of riches in IF talent right now. There are certainly worse problems to have than to have to figure out what to do with half a dozen top 60 or so prospects. 

I agree with you that Holliday could be moved to 2B. But I have some points of departure from you...

1) BOTH Gunnar AND Holliday are franchise cornerstones. Rarely are teams moving or planning to move 1:1 players, the thought in drafting them is that they will be your star level/difference making type players. I see NO REALISTIC scenario where the Orioles are planning to trade EITHER Holliday or Henderson so that they can retain Joey Ortiz in either one of their places. IMO that is a serious downgrade in talent. People/posters comparing Holliday to Ortiz have to recognize that #1 Holliday is a 5 FULL YEARS YOUNGER and #2 Holliday is probably ALREADY a better hitter than Ortiz RIGHT NOW. It's not just about what they can bring defensively, but it's about what player brings the most value in terms of the offensive and defensive contributions combined.

2) Right now there is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON with superstar/hall of fame/all time great talents/players in Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter with Jackson Holliday and Gunnar Henderson. We can only hope our two become anywhere near as good/accomplished. So, mentioning how the Yankees managed those two is probably irrelevant to how the Orioles will/are planning to manage our young guys. By the time, Rodriguez arrive in NY both he and Jeter were already superstars with superstar sized egos. You have to manage those guys differently than you would young guys who haven't proven much and aren't that accomplished yet.

Finally, you may be right in that the plan may be to move Jordan Westburg instead of Ortiz. But that would be a weird way to go about things. Seems like it would just have been easier (if the Orioles thought that Ortiz was better) to leave him up, give him regular playing time, then leave Westburg down and trade him at the deadline. You have to admit that they treated the two VERY DIFFERENTLY. Ortiz was mostly replaced by a pinch hitter in any spot where it was even remotely high leverage (6th inning of some games), he was given a number in the 60's, they did not roll out the red carpet for him, kept him on the bench for extended stretches, and sent him up and down more than once this season.

If you love a guy, that's a very weird way to show it. 

[Bemorewins]

14 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I certainly hope he’s not the type of personality that we would seek or need his “buy in”.    

You need all players to "buy-in" especially when you are asking them to change roles. These guys are human beings after all. If your company asked you to change rolls suddenly, it is understand that you would be the most productive employee that you could be if you embraced/bought in to said new role.

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

You need all players to "buy-in" especially when you are asking them to change roles. These guys are human beings after all. If your company asked you to change rolls suddenly, it is understand that you would be the most productive employee that you could be if you embraced/bought in to said new role.

Most players are happy to play in the major leagues.  If the Orioles have a young star who is a more gifted SS defensively at SS and start playing Holliday at 2B I hope he’s smart enough to put 2+2 and come up with 4.

[RZNJ]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Most players are happy to play in the major leagues.  If the Orioles have a young star who is a more gifted SS defensively at SS and start playing Holliday at 2B I hope he’s smart enough to put 2+2 and come up with 4.

Please don’t compare baseball to a real company.  It’s not.

[Sports Guy]

https://www.masnsports.com/blog/orioles-select-jackson-holliday-with-first-pick-in-draft

 

This is the type of talk that leads me to think they won’t move him. Sure, he may play other positions at times because they have versatility but he’s a SS.

[Bemorewins]

Just now, RZNJ said:

Please don’t compare baseball to a real company.  It’s not.

The same human beings (you know the ones with emotions/feelings and personalities) who work for and lead companies  are the same homosapiens who wear baseball uniforms and employ baseball players.

There is a VERY human dynamic to every job. When humans are happier and invested, they tend to perform better at almost any task asked of them.

[banks703]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

When the Os drafted Holliday, the stated reason by Elias, in terms of what was a deciding factor between hiM and the others, was that he is a true SS.

He did that knowing, at the time, he didn’t have a real CF prospect in the system(Jones) and that maybe there were some more advanced bats at lesser positions.

He also knew that he had an elite guy in Ortiz and that Gunnar was showing he could handle SS.

I just think the writing is on the wall for what they want to do. We can debate whether that’s what should be the case but I just feel that they already know that is where Holliday ends up.

 

I don't dispute any of this but we're not considering that some of this is organization-speak. If there was any chance, even the slightest, that they would ever move the player in exchange for player(s) who could address other position(s) of need, they'd want to be consistent in their label of the player they drafted.

If you draft a guy as, say a SS, only to turn around and say "we actually think he fits better at first base" then you might be conceding that your initial evaluation of the player was off or that they are not as valuable as initially communicated. 

If they are completely set in stone that Holliday is their Shortstop of the Future, why was he playing games at 2B in Aberdeen?

Of course I'm not suggesting that they are looking to trade Jackson Holliday or that they are entertaining the idea. I'm simply suggesting that they're going to do everything to promote their players in the most positive light. 

[deward]

51 minutes ago, banks703 said:

This is my feeling. If Gunnar (who is one of the cornerstones of the franchise) continues to play well defensively at SS and they move Ortiz because of Gunnar's ability to stick there, the org is NOT going to move Gunnar for a lesser defensive player. It's just not going to happen. This isn't the Yankees letting (the face of their franchise) Jeter stick at SS over A-Rod, who was the appreciably better player.

Could Holliday mature and become an even better player than Gunnar? Sure, that's possible however I do not see that happening. Holliday was getting reps at 2B before the promotion to Bowie, where he is likely to play pretty exclusively at SS given the lack of talent at the position there. I maintain that Holliday ends up at 2B in Baltimore and I can definitely see  them promote his bat for a playoff run, though not likely this year. 

Internally could they be deciding between Gunnar and JH and move one for pitching? Imagine the return that they could receive for either of them. I don't think that they have to do that and feel that they shouldn't but they certainly could do it. I don't feel that they have to choose between a soon to be 20 year old, current number 1 prospect and a recently turned 22 year old, previous number 1 prospect. 

I actually think that JW is the guy who will get moved. I think that they promoted him to showcase his ability to play at the ML level, which he is doing. The power numbers aren't there yet but they'll come soon enough. I do wonder if they move on from JW what impact that could have on the Cowser/Gunnar dynamic. Those three seem to be pretty close. 

They have an embarrassment of riches in IF talent right now. There are certainly worse problems to have than to have to figure out what to do with half a dozen top 60 or so prospects. 

Westburg isn't getting moved unless the return is something deeply impressive. Ortiz is the trade bait.