Grade our two deadline moves

[Fiver6565]

12 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

One of the things that frustrates me to no end on this board is when someone gets into a semantics (for a lack of a better word) debate on what someone said.  And you said it right here, clearly how I FELT (the word I didn't use in my initial post) was that Prieto and Rom should have been enough.  But of course I felt that way, that's what I meant when I said that.

But then people are all like "derp, derp, derp, well CLEARLY THOSE TWO WEREN'T ENOUGH!" Like, no ****, obviously they weren't enough, that's why they had to include Showalter.  I know that.  I get that.  But it's a silly thing to point out.  

And so yes, I think they overpaid a little bit for Flaherty.  I don't think they got bent over a barrel, but I also think Showalter was a guy with upside that I'd have preferred to have kept.  As I've said, I don't believe Flaherty makes us demonstrably better.  I don't think he makes us that much better than more bullpen pieces could have.

I can assure you that I wouldn't have been sharpening my pitchfork yesterday if it came out that we missed out on Flaherty because we didn't include Showalter.  Given how well Elias done here, I would have found it odd if there was some sort of backlash for not getting this deal done yesterday.  

 

Fair enough.  It was not my intent to pull out a semantics argument on you.  And I also wasn't saying that any non-deal backlash would have come from you specifically.  But we both know the meltdown that would have occurred if no deal had gone down - it was almost occurring in real time as we approached 6PM.  That was really my main point - Elias was and is always going to face criticism on this board no matter what he does.  There are literal arguments that he paid too much, and that he's prospect-obsessed and doesn't want to give anyone up, in the same threads.  The amount of criticism we hear here, for a guy that has built a team showing this kind of success, is crazy to me, and I find that annoying and that's really what I was trying to establish.

Anyway, moving on.  As noted I typically enjoy your style of humorous posts.

Thanks.

[Moose Milligan]

34 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

Fair enough.  It was not my intent to pull out a semantics argument on you.  And I also wasn't saying that any non-deal backlash would have come from you specifically.  But we both know the meltdown that would have occurred if no deal had gone down - it was almost occurring in real time as we approached 6PM.  That was really my main point - Elias was and is always going to face criticism on this board no matter what he does.  There are literal arguments that he paid too much, and that he's prospect-obsessed and doesn't want to give anyone up, in the same threads.  The amount of criticism we hear here, for a guy that has built a team showing this kind of success, is crazy to me, and I find that annoying and that's really what I was trying to establish.

Anyway, moving on.  As noted I typically enjoy your style of humorous posts.

Thanks.

Appreciate it, thank you.

But overall, it's my hope that Elias really doesn't give a Frenchman's **** about any kind of backlash, be it either here on this board or elsewhere in the Orioles fandom.  I hope that he's doing what he feels is best for the organization and the team despite what people may think.  And I THINK he's that dude because he traded Mancini and Lopez last summer, not seeming to care what anyone thought about it.  IIRC, he even had to fly down to Texas to meet the team to explain everything after trading Mancini. 

I have no doubt that this board is looked at by people in the Warehouse, maybe even Elias himself.  And so as 6pm was approaching, I really, really hope that Elias wasn't having a thought of "errrrmagerd, I can't NOT make a deal here, what do I do?!?"  And if a meltdown happened because he didn't pull the trigger on a deal, well, so be it.

So I'm assuming and giving him the benefit of the doubt that he thinks Flaherty is a good pickup for this organization despite my grumblings that I think we gave up a tad too much.  And I'm also assuming that he's banking on that he and Sig and the analytics department can hack into what Flaherty does best and get better performance out of him.  There's some things to like about Flaherty, most notably it feels like he's been around for a long time but he's still just 27.  

We agree that he's built a fantastic team and that he's above most criticism.  To the people that think he's prospect obsessed, I find that actually to be a good thing after having witnessed this organization not be prospect obsessed from the 90s to the 2000s to the 2010s.  

[Fiver6565]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

Appreciate it, thank you.

But overall, it's my hope that Elias really doesn't give a Frenchman's **** about any kind of backlash, be it either here on this board or elsewhere in the Orioles fandom.  I hope that he's doing what he feels is best for the organization and the team despite what people may think.  And I THINK he's that dude because he traded Mancini and Lopez last summer, not seeming to care what anyone thought about it.  IIRC, he even had to fly down to Texas to meet the team to explain everything after trading Mancini. 

I have no doubt that this board is looked at by people in the Warehouse, maybe even Elias himself.  And so as 6pm was approaching, I really, really hope that Elias wasn't having a thought of "errrrmagerd, I can't NOT make a deal here, what do I do?!?"  And if a meltdown happened because he didn't pull the trigger on a deal, well, so be it.

So I'm assuming and giving him the benefit of the doubt that he thinks Flaherty is a good pickup for this organization despite my grumblings that I think we gave up a tad too much.  And I'm also assuming that he's banking on that he and Sig and the analytics department can hack into what Flaherty does best and get better performance out of him.  There's some things to like about Flaherty, most notably it feels like he's been around for a long time but he's still just 27.  

We agree that he's built a fantastic team and that he's above most criticism.  To the people that think he's prospect obsessed, I find that actually to be a good thing after having witnessed this organization not be prospect obsessed from the 90s to the 2000s to the 2010s.  

I think there is a less than zero chance that Elias gives AF about what this board thinks, and your example of last years deadline is great proof of that. 
 

As harsh as this board is on players, Hyde, Elias at times, I hope no one in the entire org lurks here LOL. 

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

I think there is a less than zero chance that Elias gives AF about what this board thinks, and your example of last years deadline is great proof of that. 
 

As harsh as this board is on players, Hyde, Elias at times, I hope no one in the entire org lurks here LOL. 

Yeah, I agree.  I think Elias doesn't give AF about anything other than doing what's best for the organization.  In that view, he's laser focused, which is great.

I'm pretty sure the Warehouse lurks here and I don't know if @Tony-OHwould want to attest to that publicly but I think he'd tell you straight up in person.  It can get harsh here but no worse than what they probably hear from unhappy hecklers at the park.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Moose Milligan

[dystopia]

57 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, I agree.  I think Elias doesn't give AF about anything other than doing what's best for the organization.  In that view, he's laser focused, which is great.

I'm pretty sure the Warehouse lurks here and I don't know if @Tony-OHwould want to attest to that publicly but I think he'd tell you straight up in person.  It can get harsh here but no worse than what they probably hear from unhappy hecklers at the park.

I’m sure they do read this board. We know Mike Flanagan did when he was in the FO. 

[sportsfan8703]

I wanted to give Elias some credit for not making another move for a middle reliever. I was hoping for someone like an Ottavino. However, teams that are out of it are releasing arms that are pretty similar to Ottavino, and they only cost a waiver claim. We don’t have to risk giving up a Luis DeLeon type and have that come back to bite us. 

Someone like Ottavino is more experienced than Jacob Webb, but I’d rather not have the risk of giving someone up. 

[Alasdaire]

  

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I wanted to give Elias some credit for not making another move for a middle reliever. I was hoping for someone like an Ottavino. However, teams that are out of it are releasing arms that are pretty similar to Ottavino, and they only cost a waiver claim. We don’t have to risk giving up a Luis DeLeon type and have that come back to bite us. 

Someone like Ottavino is more experienced than Jacob Webb, but I’d rather not have the risk of giving someone up. 

That plus the bevy of intra-organization options available to reinforce the bullpen. Fuji was a different story because guys who can touch 103 MPH don’t grow on trees, and he cost nothing. But I don’t think more bullpens arms were needed because the team will have options in the bullpen come October.

Where they were running out of options was starting pitching. They literally needed a body. Flaherty provides that with the benefit of higher upside than anyone else on our staff other than maybe Grayson.

I heard Ken Rosenthal pointed out that multiple other teams needed starting pitching too and just got shut out at the deadline. Teams like Boston and Arizona. So Elias could have balked at St. Louis demanding Rom/Showalter in addition to Prieto the way that he admitted to have balked at other teams asking some of our top prospects, and we would’ve come away empty handed.

But he made it happen even if the cost did make him and many other wince. I’m the first person to express reluctance with trading prospects. But when you have a glaring need, don’t neglect it and indeed fill it with high upside, and the price you pay is a one-dimensional infielder with no path here and two fliers, I think that’s making the best of the situation.

[sportsfan8703]

MLB Pipeline just re graded their top 100 and top 30 prospects lists. Players of note involving trades…

Prieto #14 for St Louis

Showalter #20 for St Louis 

Rom UR

Lucas UR

Hernaiz #11 for Oak

Showalter was not a throw in. Rom was the throw in and we needed him off of our 40 man. 

[tntoriole]

So we took Flaherty… two others often mentioned were Mike Lorenzen who pitched a no hitter for Phils and Lance Lynn with 3 starts ,2.00 ERA for Dodgers

 

Hope Flaherty keeps pace 

[BohKnowsBmore]

7 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

So we took Flaherty… two others often mentioned were Mike Lorenzen who pitched a no hitter for Phils and Lance Lynn with 3 starts ,2.00 ERA for Dodgers

 

Hope Flaherty keeps pace 

I could certainly end up wrong, but there was absolutely nothing about what Lance Lynn was doing this year that would have made me happy had the O's acquired him. 

Despite the results post-trade, FIP and many other under-the-hood numbers are definitely higher on Flaherty's performance relative to Lynn's.

I would rush to take a bet that Flaherty will be better than Lynn remainder of the season.

[tntoriole]

6 minutes ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

I could certainly end up wrong, but there was absolutely nothing about what Lance Lynn was doing this year that would have made me happy had the O's acquired him. 

Despite the results post-trade, FIP and many other under-the-hood numbers are definitely higher on Flaherty's performance relative to Lynn's.

I would rush to take a bet that Flaherty will be better than Lynn remainder of the season.

I hope you are right!!

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/lance-lynn-trade-grades-dodgers-get-a-for-adding-veteran-starter-reliever-joe-kelly-in-swap-with-white-sox/amp/

[Sports Guy]

Lynn is also signed for a big number next year iirc.

 

[zweem]

19 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

So we took Flaherty… two others often mentioned were Mike Lorenzen who pitched a no hitter for Phils and Lance Lynn with 3 starts ,2.00 ERA for Dodgers

 

Hope Flaherty keeps pace 

Would be more  impressed if  Lorenzen no hit the NORFOLK TIDES

[Spy Fox]

10 minutes ago, zweem said:

Would be more  impressed if  Lorenzen no hit the NORFOLK TIDES

In fairness to the Nats (and Lorenzen), they're actually 6th in MLB in batting average, and have the second fewest hitter K's in the league. Contact hitting isn't that team's flaw. 

Now, the Tides vs the Oakland Athletics would be an interesting showdown. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Spy Fox