Does Buck Showalter belong in the Orioles’ Hall of Fame?

[SteveA]

6 hours ago, scbalt52 said:

Absolutely. He led us back to some glory from the dark depths.

 

The Britton thing is the most overblown, silly thing. Rewatch the game. Anyone that says they would've brought him in over Ubaldo, would've already burnt him in the bottom of the 5th using their logic. When it was 1st and 3rd 1 out in a tie game. They would've then been without Britton, even if he pitched multiple innings where we shut them down anyway (so he actually only could've done worse if pitching), and if ever gotten to a save scenario they would be destroyed (even more than Buck has) for using the closer early. But I digress and it's been rehashed enough.

Absolutely not true.   We had a great, deep bullpen that year, and the guys we brought in from the 6th inning on where excellent relievers who were being brought into the exact same situations they had been brought into during the season, bridging the gap to Britton.   We had a great bullpen besides Britton, and those guys were deployed to get us through 9 just as they had been during the season.   At that point we had waited as long as possible to bring in Britton, and using a starter who had barely relieved all season (and put up an 8.91 ERA in the four appearances he did come in out of the pen), was inexcusable.

And yeah, if we had used Britton earlier, then we would still have one of Brach, Givens, or O'Day to go to in the 10th.

You don't use Ubaldo until you have exhausted all the real possibilities.  Ubaldo, by the way, gave up a .991 OPS in his first inning of work across the course of the season.   

So he was a mediocre starter (who had admittedly finished the season on a decent note), who rarely relieved, who had an 8+ ERA when he did pitch in relief, and who over the course of the year was absolutely destroyed in his first inning of work.

No, you can't rationalize that decision now matter how much you twist yourself into a pretzel and throw logic to the wind.

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Gurgi said:

That Toronto thing was bizarre in the extreme.  We had hired him after NO one would hire him for a decade and he started talking about working for a club in our own division?  It wasnt like a promotion where teams will let you go ahead and leave like scouting director to GM.  He was the GM.  His job in Toronto was to be the GM.  

He showed a weird lack of loyalty.  

I heard a theory that Duquette is autistic and has some blind spots in his perceptions of what is correct behavior.  

Technically it was a President of Baseball Operations position thus a step up, but still he handled it terribly and it totally ruined whatever influence or relationship he had with the owner

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Why are you talking about Buck and what he's done with the Mets as if it has anything to do with his candidacy for the Orioles Hall of Fame?

I think it’s been one disappointing tenure after the next. His Orioles tenure ended the same way. I don’t think you grant a gimme for his popularity or getting close. Talking about his New York tenures show a pattern. 

[jabba72]

2 hours ago, foxfield said:

It is a very low bar. Buck should be in for ending the 14 year darkness and I personally give him bonus points for outlasting his welcome and causing the total rebuild. 
 

Im on board with DD too. He said he intended to win from day one and did. I don’t begrudge him in the Toronto thing. They were interested in a promotion and PA said no. But as I have said elsewhere I am happy they are both gone. 
 

Now about the owner. 

Buck definitely has a shelf life as a manager. The team really sunk to unimaginable depths while he was still manager. Still, the good outweighs the bad, even if he finished below .500.  I voted no, but I can still see the positives. My vote doesn't count anyway. Probably only Johns does. 

[DrungoHazewood]

19 hours ago, btdart20 said:

$140+m payroll says he did spend.  Top 10 IIRC.

As always with Angelos it's what did they spend it on? The peak payroll years around 2017 saw the bulk of that go to players in steep decline, and they still have never signed a young star to a substantial extension. 

Look at the 2000s teams, always at least mid-pack in payroll, always because they'd sign 3, 4, 5 Grade C free agents each offseason. Don't tell me Angelos won't open the pocket book, we just got Kevin Millar!

[TommyPickles]

Buck belongs in the Orioles Hall of Fame.

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

As always with Angelos it's what did they spend it on? The peak payroll years around 2017 saw the bulk of that go to players in steep decline, and they still have never signed a young star to a substantial extension. 

Markakis and Jones?

[Tony-OH]

23 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Buck passed the threshold for getting into the O's Hall of Fame sometime in 2012. The criteria for being in the O's HOF is basically "was he a cool guy who was associated with the team for a while?" Billy Hunter is in the O's Hall for being a shortstop who hit .200 with no power for few years, then coached for a long time. Bob Brown is in for being an executive, and I literally don't even know who he is and I've followed the team closely for 44 years. Same with Lenny Johnston and Julie Wagner. Ray Miller is in for being a good pitching coach and a terrible manager. Rich Dauer is in for his solid-ish 2B on some good teams.

Buck is 2nd on the modern team in managerial wins and played a huge role in dragging an Angelos-owned team that made almost no fundamenal changes from the 1998-2010 wilderness to three playoff appearances. He should get a medal.

Lennie Johnston was a minor league coach and instructor, but was mainly known as the Sarasota minor league complex guy who ran operations down there for years. Lenny was a former paratrooper in the Army so when I first met him, we had an instant bond. He was always the go to guy to get a minor league roster with numbers which certainly helped me a lot to know who was who before the internet made it so easy to get pictures of these guys.

Saying that, your point is taken. Based off the folks in the Orioles HoF, both Showalter and Duquette belong in there. 

[Tony-OH]

22 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's the Orioles Hall of Fame, the rules are whatever they want the rules to be. But I wouldn't be opposed to putting Buck and Duquette in at the same time.

Yes, Duquette mortgaged the future. But what else was he going to do? It appears that his marching orders from Angelos were to not sign any big free agents, keep the payroll in check, don't fix the farm system... and go win a pennant.

Duquette did exactly what he was brought her to do, and that was to create a playoff caliber team. Not surprisingly, he did it in 2 out of the 3 years (2012-2014) he was fully in control prior to the Toronto incident that took away most of his power and decision making powers on major moves.

[Frobby]

14 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Technically it was a President of Baseball Operations position thus a step up, but still he handled it terribly and it totally ruined whatever influence or relationship he had with the owner

I believe it was Team President, not President of Baseball Operations.  The position formerly held by Paul Beeston and now held by Mark Shapiro.  It covers more than just baseball operations.  
https://www.mlb.com/bluejays/team/front-office-directory

[Tony-OH]

20 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm shocked someone hasn't said that the Britton/Ubaldo thing disqualifies him from all the things forever.

Historically awful decision for sure, but no, that should not take away from what Buck did for a rudderless organization prior to him coming here.

[Tony-OH]

16 hours ago, Gurgi said:

That Toronto thing was bizarre in the extreme.  We had hired him after NO one would hire him for a decade and he started talking about working for a club in our own division?  It wasnt like a promotion where teams will let you go ahead and leave like scouting director to GM.  He was the GM.  His job in Toronto was to be the GM.  

He showed a weird lack of loyalty.  

I heard a theory that Duquette is autistic and has some blind spots in his perceptions of what is correct behavior.  

That's untrue. Duquette was the VP of baseball Operations for the Orioles and was being offered the President of Operations by the Blue Jays. On top of it, he reportedly was offered a good but more money.

Only a fool would not have considered that offer, especially after being out of baseball for as long as Duquette was. Would you not consider an offer for a promotion and more money? Plus, as we know now, Peter Angelos was still allowing back door channels from Buck and Brady (among others). He was given an opportunity to be able to have final authority on all baseball operations plus a pay raise. Why would anyone not consdier that offer.

On top of it all, from what I've heard Duquette basically brought the offer to Angelos to see if he would match it but Angelos was just taken aback by his "disloyalty" for even listening to that offer.

Then, Angelos tried to get two top prospects from the Blue Jays which froze all baseball moves during that 2014-2015 season that saw Nelson Cruz walk away. Once the deal fell through because of Angelos' demands, he basically kept Duquette around to make him fulfill his contract but allowed Buck and eventually Brady to have much more "control/influence" on major moves. 

Duquette basically stayed active doing those "dumpster diving" moves that he was so good at and signing upper level minor league free agents. 

 

[OriolesMagic83]

17 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

That's untrue. Duquette was the VP of baseball Operations for the Orioles and was being offered the President of Operations by the Blue Jays. On top of it, he reportedly was offered a good but more money.

Only a fool would not have considered that offer, especially after being out of baseball for as long as Duquette was. Would you not consider an offer for a promotion and more money? Plus, as we know now, Peter Angelos was still allowing back door channels from Buck and Brady (among others). He was given an opportunity to be able to have final authority on all baseball operations plus a pay raise. Why would anyone not consdier that offer.

On top of it all, from what I've heard Duquette basically brought the offer to Angelos to see if he would match it but Angelos was just taken aback by his "disloyalty" for even listening to that offer.

Then, Angelos tried to get two top prospects from the Blue Jays which froze all baseball moves during that 2014-2015 season that saw Nelson Cruz walk away. Once the deal fell through because of Angelos' demands, he basically kept Duquette around to make him fulfill his contract but allowed Buck and eventually Brady to have much more "control/influence" on major moves. 

Duquette basically stayed active doing those "dumpster diving" moves that he was so good at and signing upper level minor league free agents. 

 

It's amazing that O's fans have such a negative view of the Duquette/Blue Jays saga.  If just about any of us were offered a job at 2-3+ times what we were making, most of us would jump at it, or strongly consider it.  Duquette had the respect to let Angelos know right away.  A reputable organization/owner would have matched the Blue Jays offer in money or promotion or let Duquette go.  Instead, Angelos tried to extort the Blue Jays and in the process make Duquette a lame duck GM.  Duquette was basically GM in name only from that time until the end of 2018. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

It's amazing that O's fans have such a negative view of the Duquette/Blue Jays saga.  If just about any of us were offered a job at 2-3+ times what we were making, most of us would jump at it, or strongly consider it.  Duquette had the respect to let Angelos know right away.  A reputable organization/owner would have matched the Blue Jays offer in money or promotion or let Duquette go.  Instead, Angelos tried to extort the Blue Jays and in the process make Duquette a lame duck GM.  Duquette was basically GM in name only from that time until the end of 2018. 

I have mixed feelings about this.   The O’s picked Duquette out of the dumpster.   When they made the playoffs in 2012, they gave him a lengthy extension and a raise when they had no obligation to do so.  After they did so, they were contractually obligated to pay Duquette through 2018, shouldn’t they expect him to honor his side of that contract?   Shouldn’t they expect sone gratitude for treating him well to that point?

But I think a lot of blame falls on the Blue Jays.  They knew Duquette was under contract, so they should have been reaching out to the Orioles for permission to contact Duquette rather than sneaking behind our backs.  

We don’t know the whole story, so I’m not going to assign too much blame without knowing all the facts.  But, I can understand how Angelos felt.  
 

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

That's untrue. Duquette was the VP of baseball Operations for the Orioles and was being offered the President of Operations by the Blue Jays. On top of it, he reportedly was offered a good but more money.

Only a fool would not have considered that offer, especially after being out of baseball for as long as Duquette was. Would you not consider an offer for a promotion and more money? Plus, as we know now, Peter Angelos was still allowing back door channels from Buck and Brady (among others). He was given an opportunity to be able to have final authority on all baseball operations plus a pay raise. Why would anyone not consdier that offer.

On top of it all, from what I've heard Duquette basically brought the offer to Angelos to see if he would match it but Angelos was just taken aback by his "disloyalty" for even listening to that offer.

Then, Angelos tried to get two top prospects from the Blue Jays which froze all baseball moves during that 2014-2015 season that saw Nelson Cruz walk away. Once the deal fell through because of Angelos' demands, he basically kept Duquette around to make him fulfill his contract but allowed Buck and eventually Brady to have much more "control/influence" on major moves. 

Duquette basically stayed active doing those "dumpster diving" moves that he was so good at and signing upper level minor league free agents. 

 

I agree with all of this … and as we all agree Peter Angelos is very dysfunctional as owner and this was another example. 
 

My only caveat with Duquette though is he absolutely had to know that contacting and getting information/offer from Toronto would without doubt end any semblance of influence with his owner. Which was not much at the time anyway. 

I mean no one here on this board and certainly Duquette could not have thought .. “Oh Peter will just wish me well and recognize it’s a better opportunity for me.”

No, he knew what was going to happen but perhaps thought maybe Peter WOULD fire him ..which actually would have been better for the team and for Duquette given that offseason was totally sacrificed due to the conflict and the rest of his tenure. 

I do not blame Duquette much although I think he had to know Peter would go off. I don’t think he realized how dysfunctional Peter would act though.. until it was too late.