Angelos wanted two year lease extension

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I have no insight into her character, or any of the Angeloses for that matter, other than how they publicly present themselves.

I'm not wishing any ill health, etc. upon Georgia or Peter for that matter.

I'm just pointing out that she is 80 years old, and is unlikely to live for decades.

Yea I got ya..just saw people talking about her and was just offering a general comment.

Obviously we don’t want anything bad to happen to any of them..at least health wise. 

[spiritof66]

21 hours ago, Getz said:

Why are you so certain that John and Lou will sell after their father dies?

Here's the quick version:

1. They can't afford to keep the team. Let's say that when Peter dies he owns 75% of a franchise worth $2.0 billion (including its ownership of MASN) and $400 million in other assets. Going from memory on Maryland taxes, the estate will have to pay in federal and state estate taxes about one-half of $1.5 billion plus $400 million, or $950,000.  They probably can pay that over time, but where's it going to come from? They have no other source of income. MLB rules won't let them just borrow the $550 million they're short. Even if there's a way to swing it, John and/or Lou Angelos will have the choice of selling the team and being very, very wealthy ($475 million each uing the above numbers, plus what they get from selling their own minority interests in the team) or or remaining owners of a franchise that operates on a Bill Veeck-style shoestring ("$10,000 now and $10,000 when you can catch me"). 

2. Again in simplest terms, I can't imagine that the required majority of MLB owners will approve of John and/or Lou Angelos taking control of the team. (I'm not here going into the specifics of how the MLB Constitution works.) There are a bunch of reasons: (a) the team will be very weak financially, with no non-baseball income to fund losses in the event of a disaster like the recent pandemic, raising a threat of MLB's nightmare -- a team's bankruptcy, (b) the commissioner and many owners despised Peter Angelos for lots of reasons, not going into them here, (c) John Angelos appears to be nearly as much of an egotistical jackass as his father, and it's John (we now know) who kept the MASN litigation going for years, and he has no record of success in business (or anything else), and (d) many MLB owners abhor what appear to be John's political views. Finally, according to Lou Angelos's complant, IIRC, Peter's will leaves his interests to his sons 50-50, which means there will be no majority owner, a situation that invites disputes. (The settlement of the Lou-John lawsuit may have changed that.)

The only way in which I can make sense of MLB's allowing Georgia Angelos to continue controlling the club, and its dishonest announcements about looking to John Angelos as the Orioles' "control person," is to infer that there's a deal in place permitting the Angeloses to retain ownership and control until Peter dies (avoiding the capital gains hit) and requiring them to sell afterwards (largely what lawyers call an ice-in-the-winter commitment, meaning it's something they'd do anyway).

I hope that helps.

 

[TradeAngelos]

20 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Here's the quick version:

1. They can't afford to keep the team. Let's say that when Peter dies he owns 75% of a franchise worth $2.0 billion (including its ownership of MASN) and $400 million in other assets. Going from memory on Maryland taxes, the estate will have to pay in federal and state estate taxes about one-half of $1.5 billion plus $400 million, or $950,000.  They probably can pay that over time, but where's it going to come from? They have no other source of income. MLB rules won't let them just borrow the $550 million they're short. Even if there's a way to swing it, John and/or Lou Angelos will have the choice of selling the team and being very, very wealthy ($475 million each uing the above numbers, plus what they get from selling their own minority interests in the team) or or remaining owners of a franchise that operates on a Bill Veeck-style shoestring ("$10,000 now and $10,000 when you can catch me"). 

2. Again in simplest terms, I can't imagine that the required majority of MLB owners will approve of John and/or Lou Angelos taking control of the team. (I'm not here going into the specifics of how the MLB Constitution works.) There are a bunch of reasons: (a) the team will be very weak financially, with no non-baseball income to fund losses in the event of a disaster like the recent pandemic, raising a threat of MLB's nightmare -- a team's bankruptcy, (b) the commissioner and many owners despised Peter Angelos for lots of reasons, not going into them here, (c) John Angelos appears to be nearly as much of an egotistical jackass as his father, and it's John (we now know) who kept the MASN litigation going for years, and he has no record of success in business (or anything else), and (d) many MLB owners abhor what appear to be John's political views. Finally, according to Lou Angelos's complant, IIRC, Peter's will leaves his interests to his sons 50-50, which means there will be no majority owner, a situation that invites disputes. (The settlement of the Lou-John lawsuit may have changed that.)

The only way in which I can make sense of MLB's allowing Georgia Angelos to continue controlling the club, and its dishonest announcements about looking to John Angelos as the Orioles' "control person," is to infer that there's a deal in place permitting the Angeloses to retain ownership and control until Peter dies (avoiding the capital gains hit) and requiring them to sell afterwards (largely what lawyers call an ice-in-the-winter commitment, meaning it's something they'd do anyway).

I hope that helps.

 

I don't now a single thing about taxes(especially at the billionaire level), but if I were you I would brush up on the MD tax code again. Because there is no chance in hell those numbers are accurate. Claiming they will owe a BILLION in taxes and "can't afford" the team so they have to sell is preposterous. That makes no sense. None. Zero. Zilch. 

[Pickles]

23 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Here's the quick version:

1. They can't afford to keep the team. Let's say that when Peter dies he owns 75% of a franchise worth $2.0 billion (including its ownership of MASN) and $400 million in other assets. Going from memory on Maryland taxes, the estate will have to pay in federal and state estate taxes about one-half of $1.5 billion plus $400 million, or $950,000.  They probably can pay that over time, but where's it going to come from? They have no other source of income. MLB rules won't let them just borrow the $550 million they're short. Even if there's a way to swing it, John and/or Lou Angelos will have the choice of selling the team and being very, very wealthy ($475 million each uing the above numbers, plus what they get from selling their own minority interests in the team) or or remaining owners of a franchise that operates on a Bill Veeck-style shoestring ("$10,000 now and $10,000 when you can catch me"). 

2. Again in simplest terms, I can't imagine that the required majority of MLB owners will approve of John and/or Lou Angelos taking control of the team. (I'm not here going into the specifics of how the MLB Constitution works.) There are a bunch of reasons: (a) the team will be very weak financially, with no non-baseball income to fund losses in the event of a disaster like the recent pandemic, raising a threat of MLB's nightmare -- a team's bankruptcy, (b) the commissioner and many owners despised Peter Angelos for lots of reasons, not going into them here, (c) John Angelos appears to be nearly as much of an egotistical jackass as his father, and it's John (we now know) who kept the MASN litigation going for years, and he has no record of success in business (or anything else), and (d) many MLB owners abhor what appear to be John's political views. Finally, according to Lou Angelos's complant, IIRC, Peter's will leaves his interests to his sons 50-50, which means there will be no majority owner, a situation that invites disputes. (The settlement of the Lou-John lawsuit may have changed that.)

The only way in which I can make sense of MLB's allowing Georgia Angelos to continue controlling the club, and its dishonest announcements about looking to John Angelos as the Orioles' "control person," is to infer that there's a deal in place permitting the Angeloses to retain ownership and control until Peter dies (avoiding the capital gains hit) and requiring them to sell afterwards (largely what lawyers call an ice-in-the-winter commitment, meaning it's something they'd do anyway).

I hope that helps.

 

It might be a dangerous thing to make John Angelos choose between losing the team and moving the team.

[accinfo]

4 minutes ago, TradeAngelos said:

I don't now a single thing about taxes(especially at the billionaire level), but if I were you I would brush up on the MD tax code again. Because there is no chance in hell those numbers are accurate. Claiming they will owe a BILLION in taxes and "can't afford" the team so they have to sell is preposterous. That makes no sense. None. Zero. Zilch. 

Federal inheritance tax rates above $13 million is 40% and 10% for MD.  If the inheritance is $3billion then half is $1.5 billion. The vast majority of people this never applies to but for people this rich it does.

[jabba72]

3 hours ago, Pickles said:

Well, she is 80, so I doubt it is decades.

If he's cozying up with Governor Moore, that would be someone that could get the tax code changed as well. For a hefty bribe. 

[Frobby]

We don’t really have a clue what kind of wealth Angelos has outside of the baseball team.  I know he had a number of big real estate investments. Whether that’s tens of millions or hundreds of millions, I don’t know.  

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

We don’t really have a clue what kind of wealth Angelos has outside of the baseball team.  I know he had a number of big real estate investments. Whether that’s tens of millions or hundreds of millions, I don’t know.  

Any real value left in the law firm?

[Pickles]

10 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

If he's cozying up with Governor Moore, that would be someone that could get the tax code changed as well. For a hefty bribe. 

1) It's the federal rate that is the killer.  The state rate is relatively unimportant.

2) I think that would be a hard sell to their constituents as it violates every premise of their ideology.  

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Any real value left in the law firm?

I don’t really know, but law firms are unusual animals.  Nonlawyers can’t own them, and their main assets are their people.  A long-time successful law firm can fall apart in a nanosecond if the lawyers with the most important clients decide to leave and the clients decide to go with them.  I don’t think the Angelos family can really extract that much value out of it, but I don’t understand the structure and ongoing economics of the firm very well.  The firm was put into conservatorship during the Angelos internecine lawsuit, and I don’t know if it is still in conservatorship or if the settlement of the case somehow terminated that.  It seemed to me that they were two separate issues, but o don’t know.  And the Baltimore County court records are not nearly as publicly available as in other jurisdictions.  

[accinfo]

35 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

If he's cozying up with Governor Moore, that would be someone that could get the tax code changed as well. For a hefty bribe. 

They are not going to change the “tax code”  for one person.

[Going Underground]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t really know, but law firms are unusual animals.  Nonlawyers can’t own them, and their main assets are their people.  A long-time successful law firm can fall apart in a nanosecond if the lawyers with the most important clients decide to leave and the clients decide to go with them.  I don’t think the Angelos family can really extract that much value out of it, but I don’t understand the structure and ongoing economics of the firm very well.  The firm was put into conservatorship during the Angelos internecine lawsuit, and I don’t know if it is still in conservatorship or if the settlement of the case somehow terminated that.  It seemed to me that they were two separate issues, but o don’t know.  And the Baltimore County court records are not nearly as publicly available as in other jurisdictions.  

Angelos family have sold three or more buildings  in the last year. One downtown where the law firm was headquarters. One in Towson and one somewhere else, can't remember. The One Charles Plaza one probably was the most valuable and was built by a famous architect. Not sure how much real estate they have left. They sold the restuarant in Parkville and I think somewhere else. John's house in Nashville might get you 3/4 million.. 

[Going Underground]

Looks like the estate tax would be 16% in Naryland. Plus do they have a living trust and other things that could reduce the tax rate for Federal and State.

MARYLAND ESTATE TAX RATES
Taxable Estate*	Base Taxes Paid	Marginal Rate	Rate Threshold**
$0 – $40,000	$0	0%	$0
$40,000 – $90,000	$0	0.8%	$40,000
$90,000 – $140,000	$400	1.6%	$90,000
$140,000 – $240,000	$1,200	2.4%	$140,000
$240,000 – $440,000	$3,600	3.2%	$240,000
$440,000 – $640,000	$10,000	4.0%	$440,000
$640,000 – $840,000	$18,000	4.8%	$6400,000
$840,000 – $1.04 million	$27,600	5.6%	$840,000
$1.04 million – $1.54 million	$38,800	6.4%	$1.04 million
$1.54 million – $2.04 million	$70,800	7.2%	$1.54 million
$2.04 million – $2.54 million	$106,800	8%	$2.04 million
$2.54 million – $3.04 million	$146,800	8.8%	$2.54 million
$3.04 million – $3.54 million	$190,800	9.6%	$3.04 million
$3.54 million – $4.04 million	$238,800	10.4%	$3.54 million
$4.04 million – $5.04 million	$290,800	11.2%	$4.04 million
$5.04 million – $6.04 million	$402,800	12%	$5.04 million
$6.04 million – $7.04 million	$522,800	12.8%	$6.04 million
$7.04 million – $8.04 million	$650,800	13.6%	$7.04 million
$8.04 million – $9.04 million	$786,800	14.4%	$8.04 million
$9.04 million – $10.04 million	$903,800	15.2%	$9.04 million
$10.04 million and up	$1,082,800	16%	$10.04 million

[spiritof66]

10 minutes ago, TradeAngelos said:

I don't now a single thing about taxes(especially at the billionaire level), but if I were you I would brush up on the MD tax code again. Because there is no chance in hell those numbers are accurate. Claiming they will owe a BILLION in taxes and "can't afford" the team so they have to sell is preposterous. That makes no sense. None. Zero. Zilch. 

Thanks for the advice about Maryland law. I practiced law for 35-plus years, but never in Maryland. I'm very familiar with the federal estate tax.  The top marginal rate is 40 percent, which kicks in after exemptions at under #30 million.; when you're in the billions, the exclusions and lower effective rates are immaterial. So there's a 40 percent federal estate tax. Years ago, in going through this, I looked closely at the Maryland estate tax. I forget how Maryland works, but I thought it was 10 percent, and each tax opertes without a credit for the other. It looks like I was wrong, or there's been an increase, and Maryland's top marginal rate is 16 percent, in which case the tax obligation I estimated may be too low. I think the value estimates I used are pretty reasonable. The $400 million guess for non-Oriole assets still owned by Peter Angelos may be high, and if that's the case the situation would be worse since there would be less cash outside the Orioles to pay taxes without selling the team.

I don't mind being wrong in a context like this because it gives me a chance to learn something. How am I wrong? Wrong value estimates? Wrong tax rates? Wrong that there's a way to pay the estate taxes without selling the team? What's your analysis that leads to a different conclusion? I'm interested in how you see this. That's how we learn from one another. 

[Going Underground]

15 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Thanks for the advice about Maryland law. I practiced law for 35-plus years, but never in Maryland. I'm very familiar with the federal estate tax.  The top marginal rate is 40 percent, which kicks in after exemptions at under #30 million.; when you're in the billions, the exclusions and lower effective rates are immaterial. So there's a 40 percent federal estate tax. Years ago, in going through this, I looked closely at the Maryland estate tax. I forget how Maryland works, but I thought it was 10 percent, and each tax opertes without a credit for the other. It looks like I was wrong, or there's been an increase, and Maryland's top marginal rate is 16 percent, in which case the tax obligation I estimated may be too low. I think the value estimates I used are pretty reasonable. The $400 million guess for non-Oriole assets still owned by Peter Angelos may be high, and if that's the case the situation would be worse since there would be less cash outside the Orioles to pay taxes without selling the team.

I don't mind being wrong in a context like this because it gives me a chance to learn something. How am I wrong? Wrong value estimates? Wrong tax rates? Wrong that there's a way to pay the estate taxes without selling the team? What's your analysis that leads to a different conclusion? I'm interested in how you see this. That's how we learn from one another. 

Since you seem to know more about taxes then me, I know certain stocks and other assets have a step up basis ,so a person who lets say sells a stock they pay the difference of what the stock is worth when they received it after death and not what the deceased  person paid for it. Probably would be no step up basis for a sports team. But trusts ,like living or other trusts might also save a few dollars.