John Angelos continues to remind us how awful he is

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, deward said:

I think it would be exceedingly cocky of Elias to think that he can keep running a factory line of top prospects and maintain the quality of the team at a championship level without ever spending any money to keep key guys around. Not even the Dodgers and Rays do that. I don't like plans that rely on everything going perfectly.

Actually Elias is already doing it.

Bundy for Bradish

Lopez for Cano,  Povich and Nunez

Mancini for McDermott and Johnson

Plus building the international development system. 

The plan is not that everything goes perfect.  Its that he find enough volume and quality of players that some can thrive and some will fail.

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, baltfan said:

That’s an insane take to make and isn’t supported by the fact that the Reds were supposed to be awful and then started to draw like crazy once they started streaking.   What you say re attendance is applicable to the floor vs the ceiling. 

It’s not an insane take. It’s the truth. I know how ticket sales work, since I did it and worked there and have talked to people who work there now and it’s still the same.

For every team, most tickets are sold preseason via season tickets and group sales. After that, it’s about walk up and in season sales.  Walk up/day of game sales for the Os have averaged around 3k per game for the last 25ish years. So the Os know by OD how many tickets have already been sold and they can estimate about another 250k in walk up sales.

The difference that is left, which is a bit more of an unknown, are the in season sales and that is obviously determined by record and things like that.

Still, they have numbers on that and what to expect..so yea, by OD most tickets are either sold or they know the number.  Teams don’t see big jumps in attendance after being bad until the next season and that is because of season ticket sales. The better you are, the more people buy season tickets, thus the more tickets sold.

 

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s not an insane take. It’s the truth. I know how ticket sales work, since I did it and worked there and have talked to people who work there now and it’s still the same.

For every team, most tickets are sold preseason via season tickets and group sales. After that, it’s about walk up and in season sales.  Walk up/day of game sales for the Os have averaged around 3k per game for the last 25ish years. So the Os know by OD how many tickets have already been sold and they can estimate about another 250k in walk up sales.

The difference that is left, which is a bit more of an unknown, are the in season sales and that is obviously determined by record and things like that.

Still, they have numbers on that and what to expect..so yea, by OD most tickets are either sold or they know the number.  Teams don’t see big jumps in attendance after being bad until the next season and that is because of season ticket sales. The better you are, the more people buy season tickets, thus the more tickets sold.

 

Yes, of course most tickets are sold by opening day but that doesn’t mean teams can’t draw more than expected as the year goes on.  I agree next year will likely be a better year attendance wise.  But it is disappointing that this team can’t draw as well as the Reds who surely didn’t have a great base given the lack of excitement coming into the season. 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Yes, of course most tickets are sold by opening day but that doesn’t mean teams can’t draw more than expected as the year goes on.  I agree next year will likely be a better year attendance wise.  But it is disappointing that this team can’t draw as well as the Reds who surely didn’t have a great base given the lack of excitement coming into the season. 

Well first of all, Cinci has played 6 more home games. They have drawn just under 300k more fans. The reality is that number is probably closer to 150k or so if all games played were equal.

Secondly, you don’t know what their preseason sales were. They probably just sell more season tickets than the Os do. That speaks more to their fan base but people who don’t think DC hurts us are fools. It absolutely does.

The Orioles can still do basically what they want with DC being there but them being there makes things harder for sure.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Greg Pappas]

Interesting, if accurate.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Greg Pappas

[TonySoprano]

7 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Does anyone think there is possibly an end game for JA to want to get a new stadium built in some area outside of the city and have the same situation as Atlanta?

That seems far fetched to me but it’s something I have wondered since they keep mentioning Atlanta and what they did so much.

Absolutely not.  He's blowing a lot of smoke - "“People will speak about Baltimore like, ‘Wow, Baltimore is cutting-edge"  Yeah, that doesn't sound like "Let's move out to Timonium.  Plenty of land there around the Fairgrounds, just lose the horse race track."  "How about Columbia?  We can steal back some of those Nats fans."

[Going Underground]

7 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Absolutely not.  He's blowing a lot of smoke - "“People will speak about Baltimore like, ‘Wow, Baltimore is cutting-edge"  Yeah, that doesn't sound like "Let's move out to Timonium.  Plenty of land there around the Fairgrounds, just lose the horse race track."  "How about Columbia?  We can steal back some of those Nats fans."

Would get no money from the state if moving out of the city. I guess John can make it all private money. Braves did pay for half of the stadium.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

49 minutes ago, Greg Pappas said:

Interesting, if accurate.

Don't worry I'm sure John Angelos will fulfill his promise to open up the team's books to prove he is cash strapped. Hope JA doesn't get mad at me for asking this question on National Eat A Peach Day.

[drjohnnyfever1]

2 hours ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Serious question... could you find one single post that advocates for giving our young players raises WITHOUT extending them. I think you've responded to a pretty silly straw-man.

Also, the urgency is that the closer a star player gets to free agency, the less likely they are to sign an extension. The value isn't there for the player unless they get paid their full market value. They're more likely to consider a pre-arb extension that gives them a significant raise in the 'team-control' years. Why would I like to see them try this approach? Because the fans benefit from keeping star players longer, the players benefit because they deserve to get paid what they're worth, and ownership can easily afford it.

They could try and fail, and that's understandable. It takes two to tango, but we have every indication that they have not tried.

By the way, this could be accomplished without raising ticket prices. That was blatant lie from John.

 

I mean, I get the extending to an extent altho I didn't specifically say it, but these are still very young guys.  I just think this is an outgrowth of this whole "hysteria" around a lunatic owner.  I'm not diminishing the idea of doing it, rather just doing it now.  There's money that could be better spent in finding supporting roles, imo, than going headlong into attempting to keep all the young guys now.  It's not about whether it's right, it's about the timing.  And it seems, given this is the crazy JA thread of the moment, that it's related.

Edited August 22, 2023 by drjohnnyfever1

[deward]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Actually Elias is already doing it.

Bundy for Bradish

Lopez for Cano,  Povich and Nunez

Mancini for McDermott and Johnson

Plus building the international development system. 

The plan is not that everything goes perfect.  Its that he find enough volume and quality of players that some can thrive and some will fail.

None of those guys are franchise altering players like Adley/Gunnar/Holliday. Elias is not going to be getting guys on that level back in trades very often, if ever. For that matter, only two of those guys you listed have proven to have any value so far. The future past this current group is far from assured. 

[Hallas]

2 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Interesting, if accurate.

My reading of the numbers is that revenue sharing is more like 40m and the combined number between MASN + rev share is that 110m figure.  But between that and the national TV deal money that's 170 million for free, before the team sells a single gameday ticket, while the team payroll is like half that.

[Billy F-Face3]

19 hours ago, drjohnnyfever1 said:

Saw this on the Reddit board.  Don't know if it was posted here or how it applies to billionaires, but it might shed some light on how much the heirs would save by waiting for PA to die.  I know Frobby and others have posted about this before, but this seems a little different.  It may just be the aspect of the super rich not having the same rules.  What the article describes is my experience with small inheritances from my family, but who knows when it involves deep into 9 figures.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/orioles/comments/15xqc74/john_angelos_wont_sell_the_orioles_at_least_in/

Thanks for the link. Very interesting post. I'm not sure I fully understand it, but I can gather bits and pieces. Something that confuses me is the assumption that John will inherit the Orioles. As been documented, upon Peter's passing, his estate is being passed to his wife Georgia Angelos. John won't have an official inheritance from the franchise until the passing of his mother. And even then, Peter's will is reportedly that upon that event, both his sons' receive joint ownership.

 

Quote

In the event of Mr. Angelos’ death, the Trust Agreement provides that it will be distributed to two Marital Trusts for the benefit of Mrs. Angelos and to his two sons, Lou and John. Revocable Trust Agreement.

I think this should say "In the event of Mrs. Angelos".  The lawsuit says Georgia is Peter's legal power of attorney and holder of his estate.

But with that said, I found the scenarios interesting.

Quote

Scenario 1 - John intends to sell the team upon inheritance, in which case he would not be incentivized to invest in and pay players, as this would decrease his own profits in the short-term

Scenario 1 and 3 seem to be very likely based on the behavior we've witnessed. John has refused to invest in the team/player salaries, and this entire thread is totally about him saying as much.

[OriolesMagic83]

On 8/21/2023 at 9:51 AM, Frobby said:

Exactly.  From everything we can tell, the O’s are hugely profitable right now, and have been since 2019, except for the pandemic season. Per Forbes, here’s the O’s operating income from 2019 to now:

2019: $57 mm

2020: ($23 mm operating loss)

2021: $83 mm

2022: $67 mm

So, per Forbes, that’s $184 mm in operating income from 2019-22.  This year also figures to be huge.  Payroll is up by $23 mm, but gate receipts wil  be up by at least $15 mm and there will be playoff money (barring something catastrophic).   

Now, Forbes’ numbers may be off base, and operating income isn’t synonymous with profit.  But all indications are that the O’s have run an enormous surplus the last five years.  
 

 

Do these figures include MASN?  The Angelos family has always treated MASN as separate from the Os, even though it's only reason for existence is to air O's games (and Nats games per original agreement).  With their rock bottom production, very little is spent on the actual product.  I've seen estimates of $50 million profit or more just for MASN, very little of which seems to reach the actual Oriole franchise. 

[btownoriole]

1 hour ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Do these figures include MASN?  The Angelos family has always treated MASN as separate from the Os, even though it's only reason for existence is to air O's games (and Nats games per original agreement).  With their rock bottom production, very little is spent on the actual product.  I've seen estimates of $50 million profit or more just for MASN, very little of which seems to reach the actual Oriole franchise. 

That’s a big X factor.  The thing with MASN is that its future is very murky as far as profitability and rights fees (as it is for all RSNs).  Of course, this will affect all MLB, NBA, and NHL teams;  so it’s not like the O’s are the only MLB team affected by it.  

[Tony-OH]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:39 AM, Roll Tide said:

As much as I dislike the Angelos family this post is categorically untrue. The Orioles TV market was split in half when the Expos were allowed to move to DC. The rest of what happened is just colored bubbles. 

Was it? I was blacked out in Nagshead, NC. this seems to indicate MLB still sees that as the Orioles market.