Cease vs everyone else

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I assume Santander, if included, would be only one of several pieces going back for a guy like Kirby.  

He was talking about Bryan Woo.   Sure, it would take a lot more to get Kirby.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I take it as a given that Bummer is a lot better than his 2023 ERA suggests.  But he’s not Josh Hader, or even Darren O’Day, so I’m surprised he was worth five players to the Braves.   I’d think about it more, but since I’m not a Braves or White Sox fan, why bother?

It was more quantity over quality.

Hopefully the WS are thinking that way for other deals too.

[dystopia]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It was more quantity over quality.

Hopefully the WS are thinking that way for other deals too.

Still seems like a steal for them  it’s not like Bummer’s any good.

 

[dystopia]

Just now, dystopia said:

Still seems like a steal for them  it’s not like Bummer’s any good.

 

Actually I take that back. Bummer’s been good prior to this past year. So a little better for the Braves than I originally thought. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, dystopia said:

Still seems like a steal for them  it’s not like Bummer’s any good.

 

I know you don’t like to look to deep into stats but there is plenty of reason to believe that if you can work with him and get him right that he could be dominant.

Again, for whatever reason you and others aren’t giving any credence to the idea of how awful the WS organization is. It literally may be the worst org in the sport. That’s not exaggeration either. 
 

Think about the Os before Elias got here. Would it have been surprising to you to see a pitcher struggle here and go elsewhere and excel? Of course not..the WS are that bad.

[dystopia]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I know you don’t like to look to deep into stats but there is plenty of reason to believe that if you can work with him and get him right that he could be dominant.

Again, for whatever reason you and others aren’t giving any credence to the idea of how awful the WS organization is. It literally may be the worst org in the sport. That’s not exaggeration either. 
 

Think about the Os before Elias got here. Would it have been surprising to you to see a pitcher struggle here and go elsewhere and excel? Of course not..the WS are that bad.

Yeah, see my next post above. I forgot he was good prior to this past year. 
 

 

[RZNJ]

The other perspective 

https://www.soxtalk.com/forums/topic/116409-cease-trade-rumor-thread/#comments

[HakunaSakata]

11 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

No doubt..would love to see a Santander or Mountcastle for Woo deal.

Mountcastle and Santander combined wouldn't be enough to land Woo, a 23 year old high end pitching prospect with MLB experience who's under team control for quite awhile. And I don't see why the Mariners would be interested in either player?.They basically had the same player on their roster in Teoscar Hernandez and chose to not extend him a qualifying offer. I'm all for trying to acquire a young pitching talent, but trades have to make sense for both teams. 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

Mountcastle and Santander combined wouldn't be enough to land Woo, a 23 year old high end pitching prospect with MLB experience who's under team control for quite awhile. And I don't see why the Mariners would be interested in either player?.They basically had the same player on their roster in Teoscar Hernandez and chose to not extend him a qualifying offer. I'm all for trying to acquire a young pitching talent, but trades have to make sense for both teams. 

They may not want either of them but they also want offense that helps them right now and those guys are big upgrades over what they have.

And btw, they didn’t tender Teoscar because he had a down offensive year and would have cost 20M.

[HakunaSakata]

40 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They may not want either of them but they also want offense that helps them right now and those guys are big upgrades over what they have.

And btw, they didn’t tender Teoscar because he had a down offensive year and would have cost 20M.

You still haven't made an argument for why the Mariners would absolutely get fleeced in a trade to basically acquire a slightly less expensive version of Tesocar Hernandez. I'm not sure how you can look at production, age, contract values, etc. and suggest a Santander or Mountcastle for Woo swap with a straight face. 

[24fps]

3 hours ago, RZNJ said:

The other perspective 

https://www.soxtalk.com/forums/topic/116409-cease-trade-rumor-thread/#comments

Absolutely worth reading through.

[Sports Guy]

39 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

You still haven't made an argument for why the Mariners would absolutely get fleeced in a trade to basically acquire a slightly less expensive version of Tesocar Hernandez. I'm not sure how you can look at production, age, contract values, etc. and suggest a Santander or Mountcastle for Woo swap with a straight face. 

First of all, I never said they would do that deal. I just said I would love to see that happen, IE I would rather trade one of our proven MLers vs a prospect. For the last several months, I have been saying  Cowser or Westburg for Woo and I ultimately feel that’s what it will take.

That being said, the Mariners are a team that can win now and they may not want the maybe vs having the definites. Santander is coming off an excellent year and they very easily could value that 30 homer bat. They also may like the idea of Mountcastle for 3 more years, his power, etc…

You are also overrating Woo.  It’s not like he had some spectacular season. He was good and I like his profile but he has a ways to go. FG didn’t even have him as a top prospect in 2023. Law didn’t have him in his top 60 midseason. MLB had him as the Mariners 6th ranked prospects entering the year.

In trying to find lists with him on it but can’t find them although I’m sure I saw him listed on some in the past but you are acting like he is some can’t miss guy, which is laughable. While I would deal Cowser for him, I think that’s likely too much for him. I would do it because we have the need for pitching more than we have the need for the OFer and if that’s what it takes, so be it.

You have also been consistent in thinking none of these guys will be available and you are wrong about that..just as you are wrong about Burnes being attainable and how you were wrong that Mateo wouldn’t have value to the WS, even though they basically traded for his clone in the Braves deal.  So, you are jaded in any of this discussions because of your personal thoughts that these guys don’t have value or won’t be available anyway. 
 

One of these Mariners pitchers are 100% available and they are looking for offense..whether they want proven or not, we don’t know but we do know they want immediate help.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

Just now, 24fps said:

Absolutely worth reading through.

Let me guess..they think Cease is great and we should be trading big packages for him?

[Pickles]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Let me guess..they think Cease is great and we should be trading big packages for him?

They think we overvalue our prospects.

The only hard offer I saw was on the first page and it was "Cowser, Ortiz, Povich."  While maybe not indefensible, I would not make that trade.

There seems to be a narrative there, that exists here to an extent as well, that we "got spanked in the playoffs because we didn't upgrade our rotation."

I categorically deny that.  While I'd like to upgrade the rotation, we didn't get swept by the Rangers because we didn't have a Cease type on the roster.

If Rodriguez gets blown up again next year in the playoffs we ain't winning that series no matter who is pitching around Rodriguez.

They seem to think our window to compete will be shorter than we assume, and should be more motivated to be more "all in."

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Pickles said:

They think we overvalue our prospects.

The only hard offer I saw was on the first page and it was "Cowser, Ortiz, Povich."  While maybe not indefensible, I would not make that trade.

There seems to be a narrative there, that exists here to an extent as well, that we "got spanked in the playoffs because we didn't upgrade our rotation."

I categorically deny that.  While I'd like to upgrade the rotation, we didn't get swept by the Rangers because we didn't have a Cease type on the roster.

If Rodriguez gets blown up again next year in the playoffs we ain't winning that series no matter who is pitching around Rodriguez.

They seem to think our window to compete will be shorter than we assume, and should be more motivated to be more "all in."

I agree that some are overvaluing the prospects..just as some of them are overvaluing Cease.

They think that because it’s what happened to their team but their team was run by incompetent people who didn’t have a clue as to what they  are doing.