Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[theobird]

Palmeiro had a superb, natural line drive swing. He was a very good defensive first baseman. But I am pretty suspicious of the power. And he was not a favorite in the clubhouse.

Among the O’s first baseman of my time, He comes in #3 behind Boog Powell and Eddie Murray. 

[Moose Milligan]

2 hours ago, baltfan said:

Palmeiro benefits a lot from having a long career which allows for WAR to pile up.  In general, I think in the moment when Palmeiro was an Oriole, the players I listed were generally considered better but for sure it was closer for some of these players than others.  Palmeiro was only an All-Star 4 times in his entire career.  That tells you a bit about his place in MLB.

I understand where you’re coming from. But durability is an asset, so is being able to play at a high or a relatively high level for a long time.  

You can’t provide value if you’re not on the field.  Larkin played in parts of 19 years, Palmeiro played in 20. But Palmeiro had way more plate appearances because he was healthy all the time. Larkin wasn’t. 
 

So you’re correct. Playing a long time helped Palmeiro cause he was healthy. 

[Roll Tide]

9 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I lived that era. He finished in the top 10 in MVP 7 straight years including winning it twice.  His career OBP was .419.  Career OPS+ 156.  Palmeiro was .371 and 132 respectively. 

They both played 18 seasons…. Palmeiro out hit 3020/2468, out HR 569/521, and had more RBI 1835/1704

 

And I was alive back then as well.

Edited June 9 by Roll Tide

[baltfan]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

I understand where you’re coming from. But durability is an asset, so is being able to play at a high or a relatively high level for a long time.  

You can’t provide value if you’re not on the field.  Larkin played in parts of 19 years, Palmeiro played in 20. But Palmeiro had way more plate appearances because he was healthy all the time. Larkin wasn’t. 
 

So you’re correct. Playing a long time helped Palmeiro cause he was healthy. 

Yes, Palmeiro was a compiler.  But hey, so was Aaron compared to guys like Mantle and DiMaggio.   And Aaron is a top 5 guy all time. I think Palmeiro is a guy that at the end of his career people looked back on and thought, “Hey, look at the stats of this guy.  We underrated him some.”

[dystopia]

8 minutes ago, theobird said:

Palmeiro had a superb, natural line drive swing. He was a very good defensive first baseman. But I am pretty suspicious of the power. And he was not a favorite in the clubhouse.

Among the O’s first baseman of my time, He comes in #3 behind Boog Powell and Eddie Murray. 

Interesting, why not?

[baltfan]

2 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

They both played 18 seasons…. Palmeiro out hit 3020/2468, out HR 569/521, and had more RBI 1835/1704

 

And I was alive back then as well.

I wasn't sure if you lived through it.  I am surprised you would cite RBI and hits if you are relying on WAR.  I would think OPS+ would mean more to you. Frank didn’t have as many hits because he was an all-time prolific walker.   Tenth all time   He also didn’t have the types of guys in front of him that Palmeiro had to drive in.  

Finally, I realized I missed Thome who is another guy that was of the same era and slightly better. 

[Flash- bd]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

Palmeiro had 71.9 WAR ….. Vaughn 27….. Your other Beast was only 73.8 …so was only 2 WAR better over his career.

Yeah, though Raffy we know was heavily aided by PEDs. Vaughn probably too but obviously his prime was much shorter and he wasn't as good of a defender, but we didn't really know how to judge that as well back then. 

Thomas they say didn't do PEDs but who knows...in the end tons of players we were 'sure' didn't do PEDs ended up being guilty. 

[Roll Tide]

26 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I wasn't sure if you lived through it.  I am surprised you would cite RBI and hits if you are relying on WAR.  I would think OPS+ would mean more to you. Frank didn’t have as many hits because he was an all-time prolific walker.   Tenth all time   He also didn’t have the types of guys in front of him that Palmeiro had to drive in.  

Finally, I realized I missed Thome who is another guy that was of the same era and slightly better. 

You mentioned Thome somewhere. 
 

so Thomas had 314 more walks but Palmeiro had 552 hits. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, Flash- bd said:

Yeah, though Raffy we know was heavily aided by PEDs. Vaughn probably too but obviously his prime was much shorter and he wasn't as good of a defender, but we didn't really know how to judge that as well back then. 

Thomas they say didn't do PEDs but who knows...in the end tons of players we were 'sure' didn't do PEDs ended up being guilty. 

Hard to say who was and wasn’t. It was part of the game back then. 

[25 Nuggets]

Thomas was one of the most dangerous/intimidating right handed hitters in MLB history.

If we must cherry pick seasons:

• Frank was better ages 22-29, 32, 35, 38, 39 (12 seasons)
• Raffy was better at ages 30, 31, 33, 34, 36, 37, 40 (7 seasons)

Yes I saw both for most of their careers.  Thomas was seen as the superior hitter then and the stats back that up.  Raffy was the superior defender which for 1B/DH types wasn't considered that often and probably still isn't.

[Roll Tide]

7 hours ago, theobird said:

Palmeiro had a superb, natural line drive swing. He was a very good defensive first baseman. But I am pretty suspicious of the power. And he was not a favorite in the clubhouse.

Among the O’s first baseman of my time, He comes in #3 behind Boog Powell and Eddie Murray. 

Honestly, Palmeiro was a better power hitter than Eddie. Eddie hit in the 30s 4 times with 33 being his most. He hit 100 RBI or more 6 times with 124 being his most an no other as out of the 110s. Palmeiro hit 30 plus 10 times with 4 in the 40s. 
 

I loved Eddie when he was here and he was certainly clutch with the game on the line. Their careers overlapped and I doubt Eddie ever used PEDs ,… but I don’t think it’s close. 
 

Eddie was superior to Powell who only had 39.1 war over 16 seasons in the era where players drank and smoked. 
 

if your rating on favoritism you can line them up however you want but it’s definitely 

1) Palmeiro

2) Murray

3) Powell 

Statistically 

[Moose Milligan]

7 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Honestly, Palmeiro was a better power hitter than Eddie. 

Are you taking the offensive environments into account here?

[emmett16]

Raffy was one of the best pure hitters I ever saw.  His swing was a thing of beauty.  His ability to hit balls all over the field, for me, separated him from the other “power” guys he competed against.  The That and the fact that he walked more than he struck out over his entire career.  That’s rare. 
 

Count me as someone who couldn’t care less about players who used steroids.  It was part of the game at that time and to deny that is foolish.  All of those player deserve to be celebrated now as they were at that time.  The HOF is a flippin’ museum to preserve the memories of the people who entertained us.  No more no less.  

[24fps]

Palmeiro equals an immediate and excruciatingly long discussion about PED's so he can go pound sand.  That's this old guy's answer to the OP's question.  If I'm still alive ten years from now I will much prefer talking about the historical impact of Ryan O'Hearn.

[blid]

7 hours ago, Flash- bd said:

Yeah, though Raffy we know was heavily aided by PEDs. Vaughn probably too but obviously his prime was much shorter and he wasn't as good of a defender, but we didn't really know how to judge that as well back then. 

Thomas they say didn't do PEDs but who knows...in the end tons of players we were 'sure' didn't do PEDs ended up being guilty. 

Everyone assumes that he was a steroid user but he does still deny it. Also, he was confident enough to go testify in Congress, and all his other tests were supposedly negative. I think there’s at least a world where he got screwed somehow.