Would you say that the Tigers rebuild is more successful than the O's?

[JR Oriole]

9 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Put the Tigers in the AL East and they don't even make the playoffs. Let alone two years running.

Had we won 4 of 6 against them instead of losing 4 of 6, they finish with 84 wins and Seattle takes their spot.  

They did go 20-12 (0.625) against the AL East this year, which is pretty solid. 

[HowAboutThat]

It’s obvious that success, at least short term success, isn’t just having talent, but using it effectively.

The Os remade their infrastructure, and made it possible to maintain a steady influx of players. But now the pipeline is set up, the Os need to evaluate talent, develop it well, and finally, use it effectively, both on the field and as trade capital. 
That has been pretty successful so far, with some glaring exceptions, but overall it all remains to be seen.

The Tigers have had some luck, of course, but as they say,”we make our own luck.”

 But mainly, AJ Hinch is using his talent effectively, and that means a lot.

[DirtyBird]

13 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Put the Tigers in the AL East and they don't even make the playoffs. Let alone two years running.

The Tigers were 20-12 vs AL East

[LookitsPuck]

No. I think their record is more a function of their division. And I'm on record of saying they are very good and didn't want to face them in the playoffs. But they would not have the same amount of success in our division, tbh. I'd take our roster, farm system, and org over theirs.

[Sports Guy]

 

unlucky things happen to teams in October.

[Aristotelian]

Objectively they have won more playoff games. I'm pretty happy with our guys and our system moving forward.

True, the median outcome for productive age is probably somewhere in between Trout and Nelson Cruz.

[LookitsPuck]

20 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

The Tigers were 20-12 vs AL East

Losing record against winning clubs, get to face the White Sox 13 times a year (10-3). they did do well against the East, but a 32 game sample outside division against the East vs. in division, which they had a losing record against everybody not named the White Sox, speaks volumes. 

I do they think they're a very good team from a pitching standpoint. I think their offense is pretty mid, but excellent pitching, defense can hold up a so-so offense. 

Edited 3 hours ago by LookitsPuck

[Moose Milligan]

24 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well that’s great and all…but really isn’t what matters is that you have those guys here anyway?

Maybe Bradish is that guy..but he got hurt.

Maybe GRod will be that guy…but he’s had injury issues.

And Btw, Skubal has had injury issues for most of his career too.

It’s hard to luck into a Skubal guy and have them be healthy.

I just hope they have some really good pitchers who stay healthy.  

I don't think we have Burnes here anymore, but we'll see.

These guys all get hurt.  That wasn't the point, really...but we all hope that they have good pitchers that can stay healthy, an increasingly unlikely scenario in MLB as we head into 2025.

Skubal has had injury issues, yes.  But I'd still like for Elias to have a guy like that come through the system.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think we have Burnes here anymore, but we'll see.

These guys all get hurt.  That wasn't the point, really...but we all hope that they have good pitchers that can stay healthy, an increasingly unlikely scenario in MLB as we head into 2025.

Skubal has had injury issues, yes.  But I'd still like for Elias to have a guy like that come through the system.

I would too…but again, Bradish and GRod could be that.

The point in bringing up Burnes is we “lucked” into that guy for 2024. It didn’t work out in terms of winning in October. Lots of teams with high level starters don’t make the playoffs or see those starters fail in the postseason.

 

[LookitsPuck]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think we have Burnes here anymore, but we'll see.

These guys all get hurt.  That wasn't the point, really...but we all hope that they have good pitchers that can stay healthy, an increasingly unlikely scenario in MLB as we head into 2025.

Skubal has had injury issues, yes.  But I'd still like for Elias to have a guy like that come through the system.

Does it matter if they get drafted and developed vs. traded for and developed?

Hell, the O's starting rotation was a strength this year. Here's a breakdown of how it was constructed:

• Burnes - traded for (Elias)
• Suarez - free agent (Elias)
• Kremer - traded for (Duquette)
• Eflin - traded for (Elias)
• Grayson - drafted (Duquette)
• Bradish - traded for (Elias)
• Povich - traded for (Elias)
• Irvin - traded for (Elias)
• Tyler Wells - Rule V (Elias)
• Rogers - traded for (Elias)
• McDermott - traded for (Elias)
• Means - drafted (Duquette)

I'm excluding Bowman being an opener and getting a starting credit. 

But that said, out of all of the starters that the O's used this year, none were drafted by Elias, and only 2 were drafted by the O's (GRod, Means). 8 were acquired via trade (7 by Elias, 1 by Duquette), and 2 via FA or Rule V. 

I don't necessarily think that Elias needs to draft starters to build a rotation, but it would be nice to see a couple make it before being traded, TBH. 

That said, I don't think the above is sustainable, but the strategy would be sustainable if you have free agency play a bigger part. Look at the Royals. Their best 3 starters weren't drafted by them (Ragans - traded for, Wacha - FA, Lugo - FA). 

[DirtyBird]

17 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Losing record against winning clubs, get to face the White Sox 13 times a year (10-3). they did do well against the East, but a 32 game sample outside division against the East vs. in division, which they had a losing record against everybody not named the White Sox, speaks volumes. 

I do they think they're a very good team from a pitching standpoint. I think their offense is pretty mid, but excellent pitching, defense can hold up a so-so offense. 

3 of the 4 AL teams remaining are from the Central.

[LookitsPuck]

2 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

3 of the 4 AL teams remaining are from the Central.

Oh, I get that. I just think you'd be hard pressed to say year in and year out the Central is anything but a mediocre division. 

Typically, the AL East has at least 3 strong teams, with some seasons where 4-5 of them have winning records or close to it. 

But it doesn't matter. As said before, I've been saying for weeks prior to the end of the season that the Tigers were a very good team. I just wouldn't trade our org, team, farm, whatever for the Tigers. 

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, LookitsPuck said:

 

I don't necessarily think that Elias needs to draft starters to build a rotation, but it would be nice to see a couple make it before being traded, TBH. 

 

Paging @Tony-OH to the thread.  

I've actually advocated for this in the minors forums...letting other teams draft and try to develop guys to see which have a shot of sticking and which don't.  Essentially let other teams make mistakes in the draft and trade for guys that are still in the lower levels in other systems but you think have a shot.  I do believe that's part of Elias's strategy....as risk adverse as he is, he's not going to take risks on drafting pitching if he views that's the biggest risk in the draft.

All I'm saying it'd be nice to have a Skubal come through our system.  Does anyone really disagree with drafting and developing a Cy Young winner or is that something you guys aren't interested in?

[LookitsPuck]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Paging @Tony-OH to the thread.  

I've actually advocated for this in the minors forums...letting other teams draft and try to develop guys to see which have a shot of sticking and which don't.  Essentially let other teams make mistakes in the draft and trade for guys that are still in the lower levels in other systems but you think have a shot.  I do believe that's part of Elias's strategy....as risk adverse as he is, he's not going to take risks on drafting pitching if he views that's the biggest risk in the draft.

All I'm saying it'd be nice to have a Skubal come through our system.  Does anyone really disagree with drafting and developing a Cy Young winner or is that something you guys aren't interested in?

Oh, I'd love to have one come through our system by being drafted and developed. No doubt at all. 

[Ripken]

Their rebuild has not been better but their players don't melt under pressure.