After Two Weeks of Pie...

[SilentJames]

I have not gotten too involved in this debate, but honestly my pateince is begining to wain.

I can handle Pie taking some lumps at the plate, Markakis took some lumps his first time as a starter as well. But Pie's defense has been bothering me. I keep seeing him bobble balls, missing tough hops, poor throws.

Perhaps he is pressing, trying to hard to impress/ please because he does not want to get moved yet again. But he really needs to step up his defense because that is supposed to be the thing that keeps his developing bat in the lineup.

The way he is playing right now you have to wonder if Montanez/ Riemold would be as good in the field with a much better bat.

I hope he turns it around, but my personal leash has gotten shorter.

[DrungoHazewood]

I submit that when a team is in rebuild mode i.e. they are willing to take their lumps, force-fitting a guy onto the roster is contrary to the process. In the case of Montanez the contrary argument is being made that it's taken a long time for him to blossom. So what? Should we just let him whither on the vine so to speak, make him a career minor-leaguer ala Crash Davis in Bull Durham, or should we reward him for putting it together?

You let him have a few months in AAA to prove that his wildly-out-of-context 2008 season as a 26-year-old in AA is a real improvement, and not the case of an older guy repeating AA for the umpteenth time. And at the same time you give Pie the chance to establish himself since the rules dictate that he can't be sent to the minors and he has enough potential to make it an easy choice to not expose him to waivers.

[Frobby]

I give Pie about two solid months. He's gotta be showing improvement over that time and having a decent amount of success. Low 700s OPS at the minimum from him and improving defense. If he's at that, he keeps playing.

Markakis after two months: .219/.301/.314

Jones after two months: .245/.292/.351

That's why Pie gets a third month from me before I consider reducing his role or trying to designate him for assignment. However, I do expect to see him performing better defensively by then.

[rolliefingers]

My bet is Freel will be off the roster soon enough. The squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease, but instead is shown the door.

Because Pie is out of options, the Orioles had their back up to the wall. I'll say again, don't expect everyone to like it, nor should he immune to criticism. Hopefully he'll turn into Jones 2008.

Lasagna.

I agree with you on Freel, and actually I'd be all for Montanez replacing him because that's his role - 4th OF, and to spell Pie against good lefties. Reimold should get a chance to conquer AAA and force the issue.

As for Pie, he certainly shouldn't be immune to criticism, I just think any criticism should be in the context of "This guy's getting at least a half-season to play well, and in order to do that he needs to improve XYZ."

But completely writing him off based on a small sample size is just intellectually dishonest and annoying.

[Babypowder]

Pie has much higher upside than Montanez. He's got a better minor league track record than either Montanez or Reimold.

If you can take the options out of the equation, then you should also take Pie's disappointing performance in the majors out of the equation. That's really the only knock on Pie in relation to the other guys. Pie didn' get things done at the MLB level. Montanez did ok, and Reimold hasn't gotten there. But if you look only at minor league performance, Pie comes out way ahead of those guys, IMO.

I give Pie about two solid months. He's gotta be showing improvement over that time and having a decent amount of success. Low 700s OPS at the minimum from him and improving defense. If he's at that, he keeps playing. If not, and Reimold is doing well, he comes up. If Reimold isn't doing well, Scott goes back to LF and Salazar is our DH.

I don't give Montanez an extended look at LF similar to what I'd do for Pie or Reimold. I would bring him up immediately as the 4th OF though in place of Freel.

This is not entirely true. While Pie had some good years at young ages, Reimold's career minor league OPS is about 60 points higher. Reimold has not had a bad season at any level and lost a year due to injury. Pie was not impressive last year between MLB and AAA, a .802 in the PCL is not very good. He was great in a small sample in Iowa in 2007 and had a pretty good line in another small sample in 2005. Overall, his minor league numbers are really not that impressive. His minor leage slashers are .299/.355/.470 compared to Reimold's .281/.376/.508.

I totally agree that he should be playing right now due to his potential and lack of options. I do not think he should be given as long a leash as some however.

[Miller192]

Markakis after two months: .219/.301/.314

Jones after two months: .245/.292/.351

That's why Pie gets a third month from me before I consider reducing his role or trying to designate him for assignment. However, I do expect to see him performing better defensively by then.

Frobby, I just don't know if three months is enough.

What if Pie puts together a good week of offensive and defensive baseball towards the end of that window? Do you keep putting him out there if 11 of those 12 weeks are subpar?

As much as I don't like it, I think you need to give Pie a good chunk of the season before you can really make any decision on him.

[Mackus]

Markakis after two months: .219/.301/.314

Jones after two months: .245/.292/.351

That's why Pie gets a third month from me before I consider reducing his role or trying to designate him for assignment. However, I do expect to see him performing better defensively by then.

Pie's had a lot more time already than Markakis or Jones did heading into their first season's with the Orioles, both at the MLB level and the AAA level.

I'm holding him to a slightly higher standard.

Steady improvement will also get him more time. So if his overall numbers are still in the upper 600s but if he's been in the upper 700s the past three weeks once early June rolls around, that could buy him more time. I have an idea of what I want to see out of Pie over the first two months.

[Frobby]

Pie's had a lot more time already than Markakis or Jones did heading into their first season's with the Orioles, both at the MLB level and the AAA level.

I'm holding him to a slightly higher standard.

Steady improvement will also get him more time. So if his overall numbers are still in the upper 600s but if he's been in the upper 700s the past three weeks once early June rolls around, that could buy him more time. I have an idea of what I want to see out of Pie over the first two months.

Fair enough. I agree that part of what we need to be looking for is improvement -- not just improvement in the numbers, but just more of a feeling that Pie is having better AB's and looking more polished in the field.

[Old#5fan]

Fair enough. I agree that part of what we need to be looking for is improvement -- not just improvement in the numbers, but just more of a feeling that Pie is having better AB's and looking more polished in the field.

I think Lou Pinella was right in his dislike of Pie. I think McPhail made a mistake here.

[DrungoHazewood]

This is not entirely true. While Pie had some good years at young ages, Reimold's career minor league OPS is about 60 points higher. Reimold has not had a bad season at any level and lost a year due to injury. Pie was not impressive last year between MLB and AAA, a .802 in the PCL is not very good. He was great in a small sample in Iowa in 2007 and had a pretty good line in another small sample in 2005. Overall, his minor league numbers are really not that impressive. His minor leage slashers are .299/.355/.470 compared to Reimold's .281/.376/.508.

I totally agree that he should be playing right now due to his potential and lack of options. I do not think he should be given as long a leash as some however.

Reimold's advantages are mostly age. Pie had a .793 OPS in AAA at 21, and a .973 at 22. Reimold saw his first AAA pitch two weeks ago at 25. It's hard to overstate the difference between a prospect who holds his own in AAA at 21 and one who is 3-4 years older at the same level.

If you take two major league rookies, both with .750 OPSes, both outfielders, but one is 21 and one is 25, the 21 year old can be expected to have a career three or four times longer and similarly more valuable.

I guess you can argue that Pie has gone backwards or something, but Pie's overall resume is far, far more impressive than Reimold's.

[Old#5fan]

I couldn't agree more. This is what I said in another post.

I don't think anyone "loses" their defensive ability. Its not like hitting. It is memory skill learned by repetition. I am much more inclined to believe that Pie has never been good to begin with defensively and this is just another clear example of poor scouting. It seems to happen all the time nowadays in all sports for some reason. Ray Charles could see Pie is lousy as a fielder.

[Old#5fan]

Reimold's advantages are mostly age. Pie had a .793 OPS in AAA at 21, and a .973 at 22. Reimold saw his first AAA pitch two weeks ago at 25. It's hard to overstate the difference between a prospect who holds his own in AAA at 21 and one who is 3-4 years older at the same level.

If you take two major league rookies, both with .750 OPSes, both outfielders, but one is 21 and one is 25, the 21 year old can be expected to have a career three or four times longer and similarly more valuable.

I guess you can argue that Pie has gone backwards or something, but Pie's overall resume is far, far more impressive than Reimold's.

His resume appears to be very much misleading then as the guy seems to be making every fly ball appear an adventuresome challenge at the major league level. How this guy ever got a reputation as good defensively defies belief.:rolleyestf: Reimold cannot be any worse defensively.

[Wind Rider]

Brady Anderson didn't have any problems moving to left.

[PaulFolk]

His resume appears to be very much misleading then as the guy seems to be making every fly ball appear an adventuresome challenge at the major league level. How this guy ever got a reputation as good defensively defies belief.:rolleyestf: Reimold cannot be any worse defensively.

So...because Pie looks bad now, he must have always been this bad? That's your contention? You seriously think that he has struggled in the field his entire minor-league career, yet somehow everyone everywhere got it wrong and said he was great?

[Old#5fan]

So...because Pie looks bad now, he must have always been this bad? That's your contention? You seriously think that he has struggled in the field his entire minor-league career, yet somehow everyone everywhere got it wrong and said he was great?

Yes I do. I have seen it in other sports as well. Scouts get it very wrong sometimes and it always makes me wonder how they can do their job so poorly on certain players.