MacPhail cites Tex offer as proof the Orioles will spend money

[Mashed Potatoes]

If MacPhail offers 5/75 and other teams offer 5/85-90, does that mean the 5/75 is an acceptable offer compared to the others?

When you use the word acceptable you're using it within the context of, if we really want a player we should do whatever it takes to get said player.

When MacPhail uses the word acceptable it's within the context of, what is the benefit of having the player on our team compared to the cost of the contract in terms of dollars and years, and does it make sense given the player's age, position and where we are as a franchise in terms of competing.

I hope you can see how given MacPhail's context, there is a threshold he is not willing to cross independent of what other teams do and offer to said free agent. In your use of acceptable that threshold does not exist.

Can you see the difference?

If we are going to offer big money, then we have to make sure we have the highest offer on the table. Bottom line. Otherwise it's just another token offer to make it seem like we are willing to spend money yet the player doesn't want to come here.

Again, we "have to make sure" it's the highest offer only if you're operating from, we need that player and should do whatever it takes. If you're operating from, I feel that at a certain point that player's contract will damage the organization's ability to compete, there is a limit to what you will offer.

Your assertions that the offer is not genuine and that the goal of making the offer is to appease fans are without evidence, however, they do fit nicely with the story you have created. What you need to consider is that what your story is not the truth, it's a narrow filter which you grind all information through.

[Sports Guy]

Boras would never not counter just because he doesn't think a team will agree, that's not his style. He'll always try and get more people involved just to up the ante for other teams.

There is no rational reason for Boras not to counter just because he doesn't think we'd go that high. There is also no rational reason for MacPhail to make an opening offer and then tell Boras what the max he'd be willing to go is right after that.

Bottom line is Tex got offers that were more than the Orioles were willing to pay. I disagreed with the thinking that he wasn't worth going higher (although the Yanks likely would have ultimately gone higher than I was willing to go), but I don't think MacPhail should have been upping his offer without being asked to or given any indication that Tex would consider Baltimore.

If the Orioles said 160 is the best we will do, I doubt Boras comes back to them.

[ChaosLex]

Only El Trea gets it. He's the one that really knows whats going on.

Maybe the money was right but MacPhail didn't take him to Morton's or Ruth's Chris. That would have put it over the top and got the deal done.

:laughlol:

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[ChaosLex]

t-bag didn't want to play here, plain and simple.

[VICIOUS]

Screw Tex

Screw Mussina

Hell, Screw Kenny Singleton.

Damn Spankees!

[mcgraw238]

When you use the word acceptable you're using it within the context of, if we really want a player we should do whatever it takes to get said player.

When MacPhail uses the word acceptable it's within the context of, what is the benefit of having the player on our team compared to the cost of the contract in terms of dollars and years, and does it make sense given the player's age, position and where we are as a franchise in terms of competing.

I hope you can see how given MacPhail's context, there is a threshold he is not willing to cross independent of what other teams do and offer to said free agent. In your use of acceptable that threshold does not exist.

Can you see the difference?

Again, we "have to make sure" it's the highest offer only if you're operating from, we need that player and should do whatever it takes. If you're operating from, I feel that at a certain point that player's contract will damage the organization's ability to compete, there is a limit to what you will offer.

Your assertions that the offer is not genuine and that the goal of making the offer is to appease fans are without evidence, however, they do fit nicely with the story you have created. What you need to consider is that what your story is not the truth, it's a narrow filter which you grind all information through.

That's a great post. I'm amazed that posters here have the patience to keep on doing this. At some point you start feeling like the hamster running on the wheel.

[Moose Milligan]

t-bag didn't want to play here, plain and simple.

I still think this is true. And even if the O's matched the Yankees offer or even paid more I don't think it'd get the job done.

Let's face it, NY has so much more to offer a player than Baltimore does. People act like its all about the dollars and I think to a degree it is but when you take everything else into account outside of the money Baltimore almost always falls short.

[Mashed Potatoes]

That's a great post. I'm amazed that posters here have the patience to keep on doing this. At some point you start feeling like the hamster running on the wheel.

I haven't posted on the Orioles Talk forum for awhile because it seems like the exact same debate over and over again. However, there was just an announcement that staff is excused at 1:00 so I actually have the time to take it on.

Unlike others I don't find arguing with Trea to be frustrating. I kind of see it as a challenge to help clarify what exactly he's saying and to make him aware of the bias that penetrates his entire thought process. Most of the time people just insult him so I have hope that what I'm doing is different from the past.

Thanks for the kind words.

[JTrea81]

Trea, what does this mean to you? Can you summarize this please?

I agree you have to be careful, but when you are in bidding with the "big boys" for a player, you can't put the lowest offer on the table and expect that player to take it.

Tex wasn't the last opportunity to upgrade via FA. But it's an example to show that MacPhail just does not know how to pursue premium talent in free agency.

You may think a player is only worth so much, but other teams that want the player are willing to pay more. So if you truly want and need the player, you have to pay that price. That's what free agency is all about.

Also you want a player, you can't set the price for that player unless you make the first offer. The Orioles did not do that in Teixeira's case. The market had already been set with the Angels' offer and the Orioles went below it.

So if we wait for the market to set itself as MacPhail likes to do, we'd better have an understanding of where it is or where it is going to go before we make our offer if we want it to be a non-token one.

[NaptownOfan]

"Andy?....Scott Boras here....You indicated earlier you were willing to work with that 7/140 offer, so I wanted to get back to you. We know Tex loves the Orioles, and it's where he wants to be, but I aint gonna let him take a dime less just to play in his hometown.

"8yrs/180 million. Thats the number. Just say yes, and you've got you're man".

If Tex wanted to be here, that call would have been made. It was NEVER made. I don't blame AM for not picking up the phone and begging to be invited to a party he already made clear he WANTED to be a part of. AM is using this as an example that the O's will pull out the checkbook for the right situation, and I believe him. I just don't see anyone on the market this offseason that's worth throwing $ at just because we can.

[TiredofLosing20]

I agree you have to be careful, but when you are in bidding with the "big boys" for a player, you can't put the lowest offer on the table and expect that player to take it.

Tex wasn't the last opportunity to upgrade via FA. But it's an example to show that MacPhail just does not know how to pursue premium talent in free agency.

You may think a player is only worth so much, but other teams that want the player are willing to pay more. So if you truly want and need the player, you have to pay that price. That's what free agency is all about.

You don't think the Red Sox truly wanted and needed the player? But even they drew a line in the sand.

[Sports Guy]

Back to the original point of this thread and what AM was saying.

Do you guys believe that the offer to Tex is proof that the Orioles will spend big time money...not Aubrey Huff contracts but premium player type contracts...Does that offer make you confident that the Orioles will SIGN players like that?

[Singleton]

Tex was going where the money was...plain and simple..Anyone who believes differently is fooling themselves.

As stated in another post, Tex did NOT go where the money is -- which was the Nats. He went to the Yankees. This key fact defuses all of your and Treas argument but you continue to ignore it.

You seem to believe that Tex wanted to come to Bal "because he said it all those years" but not believe that the Yankees were his first choice because he said it after he signed.

You seem to believe that AM "read the reports" so he knew that $140 mil was not a real offer but didn't "read the reports" enough to know that the Yankees were determined to get him and that are entering a bidding war was pointless. The Yankees have the HUGE advantage of being the most decorated team in sports history, had a real chance to win the World Series (which they accomplished) and who have unlimited resources to spend.

The truth is none of us really know how the bidding process went. Sure, perhaps AM (or PA) didn't want to spend big bucks, threw in a token offer and threw up his hands when we didn't get him. It is just as likely (perhaps more) that AM did want him but quickly realized that Tex wanted the Yankees and the Yankees wanted Tex and so there was really no point to throwing bids in that weren't going to be accepted (See the Nats).

The endless bickering over this issue that has no basis is tiresome.

[Stotle]

But where is it telling...That Tex didn't want to come here(which means you think he was a liar all those years) or that Boras never believed that the Orioles would compete with that offer?

I think the idea of Noras knowing the Orioles wouldn't compete with the offer is more likely...had the offer stayed in that 150-165 range, I think he comes back to us.

We have no idea what AM said..Maybe he told them they have a threshold and that the Red Sox and Yanks were over it.

I think you havea legitimate thought bouncing around somewhere in here, but the bolded doesn't seem likely at all (a unilateral decision that BAL was "unlikely" to still be interested). Based on my observations of and participation in highly-publicized, big money negotiations, and appying that to what was reported in the Teix negotiations, it seems there are two likely scenarios:

1) Boras/Teix were not interested and never came back to AM -- when AM tried to follow up, Boras would not engage.

2) AM let Boras know there was wiggle room, but that wiggle room was passed. When Boras came back AM told him no and neither side saw a reason to make that confidential negotiation public.

AM wouldn't tell Boras a ceiling ahead of time -- that would basically eliminate any chance AM had of getting Teix for less than the ceiling. If Boras/Teix had any (whatsoever) desire to be in BAL, they would come back to AM for a final pass.

My read is that NYA was the likely outcome -- Boras was told NYA was very interested but wouldn't engage until Teix had a firm number in mind (didn't want to negotiate against the field), take it or leave it. Boras shopped around to get the best deal possible (taking into account what Teix was looking for) and went to NYA to beat that. Once NYA said they would, it was up to Teix to decide if he wanted the NYA offer or whatever the best "other" offer in hand was. A variation would be that NYA was predetermined for any price, whatever Boras established as market, but I think that makes a little less sense (though still possible) based on the fact that Boras isn't likely to discuss specifics from negotiation to negotiation.

[Mike B]

From Melewski's blog:

Seems to me Andy still doesn't quite get it. He offered the lowest amount for Tex of the teams that were pursuing him and yet still thinks that's an acceptable offer. Hopefully he doesn't make that same mistake in judgement when pursuing lesser names.

Seems to me, you do not get it. And frankly, It seems you never will.