Unbelievable... 0% Graduation rate '97-'00

[Bosibus]

For all colleges:

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1144&CID=722328

[geschinger]

The problem is the use of flawed statistics over the wrong period of time. Kind of like measuring Miguel Tejada's overall defensive abilities based on fielding percentage in August 2007.

Apparently some of the players actually did graduate, and most of the players involved are playing pro ball somewhere. Judging Williams based on those guys is like judging Harvard a failure because Bill Gates dropped out of school.

Good analogy for the old system but it's been addressed. While it is still far from perfect they did make changes to the system - teams are no longer penalized for players who transfer or leave early for the NBA. The Bill Gates equivalent - a Maryland player dropping out/leaving school early to go pro does not count against them.

[Eight]

Come on....This is like saying student athletes go to school for a degree and the sport second...It just isn't reality.

If Gary graduated 100% of his kids but won 12 games every year, how long do you think he would have his job?

It's a nice concept to pay lip service to in order to make it look like you're doing things the "right way" but as long as there are no more Chris McCray situations, no one really cares.

And aside from that, the team graduated 3 of its 5 scholarship seniors last season and will probably graduate 2 of 3 over the next two seasons. It's silly to think this is a big deal when these guys won a national title and have been out of the program for years.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Good analogy for the old system but it's been addressed. While it is still far from perfect they did make changes to the system - teams are no longer penalized for players who transfer or leave early for the NBA. The Bill Gates equivalent - a Maryland player dropping out/leaving school early to go pro does not count against them.

Yeah it does, because then it wouldn't be taking Dixon, Blake, etc. into account.

They COULD have stayed in college to get their degrees; they chose to leave school before that. Doesn't matter whether they had any "eligibility" left, which is what the NCAA is measuring.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's a nice concept to pay lip service to in order to make it look like you're doing things the "right way" but as long as there are no more Chris McCray situations, no one really cares.

And aside from that, the team graduated 3 of its 5 scholarship seniors last season and will probably graduate 2 of 3 over the next two seasons. It's silly to think this is a big deal when these guys won a national title and have been out of the program for years.

Personally, knowing all that is done for the student-athletes to keep them above "C" level, as well as the effort I had to put in to flunk out myself, I have no sympathy for Chris McCray, Jared Gaither, etc. They are either ignoramuses on a gigantic scale or they just didn't listen to anyone.

[AgentOrange]

Heather Dinich does a pretty good job getting the pulse of the Terps for viewers. She is the Roch equivalent for the Terps. Here is her blog about it, I don't get too upset after reading this. I know we aren't supposed to post the whole thing, but I think it all applies:

Look, it's not every day you'll find me defending Gary Williams - even he was hard to convince last night that I agree with him, but I do.

As bad as a zero percent graduation success rate looks, would you trade your 2002 national championship for a higher one?

Didn't think so.

Look, we're talking about the top eight players in the rotation that beat Indiana - guys who went on to successful, lucrative, professional careers. Terence Morris, who currently plays in Israel, and Jamar Smith, who was on Maryland's ACC championship team, were also among the 10 players who did not graduate in the 1997-2000 cohort.

It's no wonder no other school in the nation didn't have a zero percent graduation rate. No other school in the nation won the national title in 2002 and had 10 guys during that particular time frame turn pro.

"Basketball players have a reverse economic career," Gary said last night. "They have an opportunity to make more money from 22 to 35 than most people make their money from 50-60. Basketball is completely different."

Gary ran through a bunch of those players and what they've accomplished other than a degree:

Lonny Baxter (the whole "gun thing" aside) - made a minimum of $400K

Byron Mouton - same thing, and two courses away from graduating.

Juan Dixon - Making $3 million with Toronto (this is all according to Gary).

Steve Blake - $5 million.

Drew Nicholas - $800K.

Chris Wilcox - $6.2 million for third consecutive year.

Ryan Randle - playing overseas this year.

"What are you trying to say?" Gary asked me yesterday. "Are you trying to say these people haven't been successful?"

Not even close (except for that whole "gun thing").

Even D.J. Strawberry, who didn't graduate but signed a two-year deal with Phoenix, is making the NBA's minimum, which is somewhere around $400k. How much did your college degree make you?

Maryland, as a university, needs to get itself into this century and offer online courses, so that guys like D.J. can slowly plug away at whatever credits they had left from whatever NBA city they're in, and get this done within the NCAA's six-year window. Tahj Holden graduated, but it took him longer than six years, so he doesn't "count."

Maryland's graduation rate is bound to improve. Four of the six seniors last year graduated. Both of this year's seniors are on track to graduate in four years. The data released yesterday is a decade old.

The only question remaining is this: Given that all 10 of those players counting against Maryland chose to play professionally, what more was Maryland coach Gary Williams supposed to do?

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/

[Todd-O]

I'm going to have to side with Gary in this instance. He's right. First off, everyone knows that the vast majority of D1 scholarship hoops players are there for a shot at the NBA... and if not the NBA, then one of the foreign leagues.

If I were a decent D1 player that had a shot to make it to the pros... I'd definitely go for it. You can always go back to college. You can't, however, always maintain the physical abilities you possess in your 20's. Hence, these kids make a run for lots of money first.

It's not like non-student athletes have a 100% graduation rate. In fact, my wife is an alum of one of a well known business school and I was reading a story in their alum magazine about two undergraduate students who have won prize money to pursue a revolutionary business idea. They are so consumed by their business plan, that they are considering dropping out of school to devote 100% of their energy and time to it. The magazine celebrated this fact... not bashed it. This is no different than a kid leaving school or neglecting school to try and make the pros.

The Chris McCrays of the world may harvest pity from many of us... but these kids are not only given amazing opportunities, but in most cases their universities provide them with the tools to succeed if they are willing to put forth the effort. Of course there are instances where schools over look academic issues simply to keep a kid in a sports program. There are players who have gone through college without possessing literacy. But in most cases the school has put forth a decent effort to give student athletes the ability to achieve a degree.

But, my goodness, Maryland is one school that takes academics fairly seriously... especially when they consider recruits for their major sports programs.

Someone mentioned Byron Mouton. I loved watching him play. He seemed like a good kid. That article in the Post about him last year was hard to read. His post-college experience is the ugly side of the whole business. Not only does he not have a degree... but he's playing games in high school gyms. It sucks and I'm sure everyone here wishes him the best of luck, but he was well aware of the stakes.

[Gurgi]

I think of these kids as entertainment. Most of them would go into a minor league NBA if they had such a thing. Lots of them really arent that interested in the college life.

I really dont see what the big deal is. They force these kids to go to college to get to the NBA. Its a messed up system.

[Mackus]

Personally, knowing all that is done for the student-athletes to keep them above "C" level, as well as the effort I had to put in to flunk out myself, I have no sympathy for Chris McCray, Jared Gaither, etc. They are either ignoramuses on a gigantic scale or they just didn't listen to anyone.

Chris McCray and Gaither aren't similar situations.

McCray was on track, Gary and whatever system they have in place to keep these guys passing the classes they need to pass were doing a great job. Then Chris decided to skip a couple finals because he thought it wasn't a big deal. He failed those courses, and hence didn't pass the required amount of credits to be eligible for the Spring. I'd put the blame on the coaching staff if it was a case of the kid not doing the work all semester long and having nobody looking over his shoulder. But when the only problem is the kid decided he was too important to show up for his finals, I can't blame the support staff for that. Its McCray's fault, and his only, always has been. Gary gets no blame at all for McCray's academic issues, since there was absolutely nothing reasonable he could have done to prevent it.

[inmn]

Something we are losing sight of is that this is not a pro sport, the University

of Maryland is an academic institution run by professional educators with oversight by the Board of Regents-most could care less about basketball. We may judge GW by wins/losses but his employer largely looks at two objectives: revenue produced (including alumni/booster giving) and administration (ie-don't embarass the university). However the graduation rate is defined it is embarassing to Yow and the academic side of the university and snowballs upon on recent administration problems within the men's basketball program. By all accounts Yow does care for GW but tolerates him as long as he does his job. Behind the scenes this will make his job more difficult; GW would like the same percentage of revenue allocated back into the basketball program as other ACC programs to help with recruiting (facilities, travel, meals, support etc..)-he's not going to win any budget battles this year. There may also be oversight repercussions for academic exceptions-which would affect marginals like Wilcox or Jennings. No matter how you cut it more oversight is not a good thing if you like winning. On a personal note it is dissapointing to see people who could care less about kids who provide entertainment and enjoyment for others and bring a very diverse campus, alumni, and community together. I like to see former players prosper outside of basketball like Len Elmore as opposed to JoJo Hunter or Baxter (Jail).

[BaltimoreTerp]

Something we are losing sight of is that this is not a pro sport, the University

of Maryland is an academic institution run by professional educators with oversight by the Board of Regents-most could care less about basketball. We may judge GW by wins/losses but his employer largely looks at two objectives: revenue produced (including alumni/booster giving) and administration (ie-don't embarass the university). However the graduation rate is defined it is embarassing to Yow and the academic side of the university and snowballs upon on recent administration problems within the men's basketball program. By all accounts Yow does care for GW but tolerates him as long as he does his job. Behind the scenes this will make his job more difficult; GW would like the same percentage of revenue allocated back into the basketball program as other ACC programs to help with recruiting (facilities, travel, meals, support etc..)-he's not going to win any budget battles this year. There may also be oversight repercussions for academic exceptions-which would affect marginals like Wilcox or Jennings. No matter how you cut it more oversight is not a good thing if you like winning. On a personal note it is dissapointing to see people who could care less about kids who provide entertainment and enjoyment for others and bring a very diverse campus, alumni, and community together. I like to see former players prosper outside of basketball like Len Elmore as opposed to JoJo Hunter or Baxter (Jail).

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?

And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

[geschinger]

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?

How about option 3 - a 25 win team with a > 0% graduation rate?

And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

Anytime one is the worst at something it's embarassing. It in no way shows a real lack of intelligence or critical/logical thinking skills. Now anyone that ignores the context and calls for the coaches head or some other kind of ridiculous remedy - that would be different.

[inmn]

So, you would rather see a 100% graduation rate and a 15-win team?

And again, anyone who looks at the reason behind the "0%" (and it deserves, like everything else from the NCAA, to be in quotes) and views it as embarrassing is not someone I want affiliated with my university anyway, because it shows a real lack of intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills.

No, that's not my point, and why are the two mutually exclusive-they are not at other schools. Please re-read my post, my point is that most professors, administrators and regents will view it as embarassing that Md is last with 130? some odd schools ahead of them. I think most of them see the U of Md's mission not to produce basketball players but to educate young men and women-and these are the people that GW deals with on an everday basis. Does it mean they will win or lose more games-I don't have a clue but Gary's job will be at least marginally more dufficult.

You do realize that in making your last statement that graduation rates determine available scholarships as per the NCAA and GW's is incenticized on graduation rates? So the council which set the policy and is populated by university presidents not AD's lacks "intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills"?

[BaltimoreTerp]

No, that's not my point, and why are the two mutually exclusive-they are not at other schools. Please re-read my post, my point is that most professors, administrators and regents will view it as embarassing that Md is last with 130? some odd schools ahead of them. I think most of them see the U of Md's mission not to produce basketball players but to educate young men and women-and these are the people that GW deals with on an everday basis. Does it mean they will win or lose more games-I don't have a clue but Gary's job will be at least marginally more dufficult.

You do realize that in making your last statement that graduation rates determine available scholarships as per the NCAA and GW's is incenticized on graduation rates? So the council which set the policy and is populated by university presidents not AD's lacks "intelligence and critical/logical thinking skills"?

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.

[Dr. FLK]

My statement still stands.

The players in question are, mostly, doing what the University of Maryland was preparing them for: a career in their chosen field.

If I got a job offer from a newspaper and dropped out of Towson, does that reflect poorly on Towson because of my decision? Should I pay back the grants I'm getting from them and the state?

All the graduation rates do is perpetuate a lie so that the university presidents who finance other educational pursuits through the sports involved can sleep at night without feeling as though they sold their souls to the green-backed devil.

It's just another example of the hypocrisy of "college" athletics, and if you are going to blame Gary Williams for a group of players who are doing what they went to college to learn how to do, then I really don't know what to tell you.

I hear ya on this. And, I agree with it in theory. But 0% is dreadful, no matter how you slice it. Zero? Just give me a few...make it look respectable. See, every major college in the country can use that excuse. Yet none of the others have a big, fat zero. It just makes the school look bad...and I have too many degrees from there for it to start looking bad.