Just listened to Palmer on XM

[Tony-OH]

I think a losing culture breeds this type of "inmates running the asylum" kind of thing. I've heard some things about Jones, Roberts and even Markakis and I've always wondered if they weren't constantly losing would they have a better attitude?

Continual losing can not be good for anyone. Roberts and Markakis have been on losing teams their entire major league careers. Tejada was burned out when he left because he was just burnt our from losing.

As good as Roberts (when healthy) and Markakis are, they are not team leader guys and they have no experience at winning.

I'm a big believer that you should surround your young players with solid veterans who have won. The Orioles have too many guys with the same laid back personality and I think it was hard for Trembley to hold their feet to the fire because I'm not sure he ever truly felt he could be himself with his clubs for fear of "losing the clubhouse."

Wieters is another guy who's not going to inspire others. It's not really his style. Matusz is too new and hasn't done enough at the big level. Jones is a good guy overall but he's got his own rumors floating around about his on and off field habits.

This team needs a transfusion. MacPhail is going to have to trade off major pieces of his "core" for no other reason then to change the culture.

The Orioles have a culture of losing. Their minor league teams over the years minus a few good teams have pretty much lost more than they won, and the big league team is going about completing it's 13 straight year of losing.

MacPhail has to realize his core group needs a tranfusion of different personalities. Obviously talent is the main ingrediant, but if he keeps the current group, he's going to need a well respected high energy type of manager to lead it.

[George]

I don't begrudge him his opinions. But I would really like to see Palmer actually attempt to coach or manage. He is a guy who matches all of the criteria that people seem to want in a manager. But he strikes me as a guy who does not want to be put in a situation where he would have to back up his rhetoric with action.

So that makes me take the things he says with an ever-so-small grain of salt.

I don;t know for sure why Palmer wouldn't want to be a field manager, but I can guess: The job totally sucks! Any manager faces the problem that he has few tools to influence outcomes. When a player doesn't implement the manager's directives, what are the manager's options. Fire the player and hire a replacement? The manager doesn't have the authority. Fine the player. Can't do that either, thanks to union rules.

Bench the player. Now that's an impotent threat, albeit much cherished by hangouters. A benched player will be back in the lineup soon because the manager has limited options. The player know this. The bench is not stocked with superior MLB players. Many of the regulars are marginally competent. The younger guys must play regularly to develop and cannot be benched except for a game or two.

The only management tool remaining is a Knute Rockne pep talk from time to time. That must go over well with many of our lazy, spoiled millionaires. After the third or fourth pep talk, the cliches become just laughable, not inspining. Pep talks work best with children, not adult professionals.

Imagine that you are managing any business with such limited powers over your employees. Given other options, as Palmer has, why would he want to be a manager? Why would anyone want a job in which success is out of your control?

[Punchandjudy]

Tommy Lasorda. I'd assume a guy with a regular gig on The Baseball Bunch was a nice guy. Dodgers seem to be a recurring theme here.

QUOTE]

Actually, I hear that Lasorda was quite the fire brand. You certainly didn't want to get on his bad side. I think his bit on the Baseball Bunch was in direct contrast with what type of manager he was.

Something people often overlook is Weaver's knowledge of the rules. He understood the game in and out. He also wasn't the type of guy to put guys in motion for a hit and run, instead relying on pitching, defense and OBP. Fundamentals are the heart of a competitive team and no matter who ultimately replace Trembley with, whether a vocal type or someone who who is more laid back, no matter what the case the fundamentals of the game must be stressed and understood by everyone involved. The game is still a TEAM game and no one individual rises above that concept and thus no one individual is not expendable.

This team does have talent-it seems very much like the 2003 Tigers in my opinion. Now if we could find someone like a Leyland who appreciates a challenge, we could have a chance. Every problem creates opporunity, and if somone were able to ressurect this franchise he would hailed as the best in the business.

[Old#5fan]

I find it laughable that this irritated you. I welcomed that- ESPECIALLY with all of the talk about how tight the team is... and always seems to be. Anything to lighten the mood is highly welcome IMO.

It would be one thing if they were a winning team but they are a bunch of frigging losers who shouldn't be joking about anything just because they get a win or two. Do you think the great Orioles teams that won WS did this stupid crap after a win? If they did though I could have lived with it because they were WINNERS. This team is a joke and celebrated one or two wins sandwiched betweem double digit losses is moronic and the players come across as a bunch of idiots.

[Guest rochester]

I am a bit surprised that no one mentioned Joe Altobelli as a nice guy - had the task of taking over for The Earl and only won a WS the first year. Was 8 games over .500 in 84, then canned after being 3 games over in 85, when The Earl returned and managed 105 games, with a 53-52 record.

[Old#5fan]

I think a losing culture breeds this type of "inmates running the asylum" kind of thing. I've heard some things about Jones, Roberts and even Markakis and I've always wondered if they weren't constantly losing would they have a better attitude?

Continual losing can not be good for anyone. Roberts and Markakis have been on losing teams their entire major league careers. Tejada was burned out when he left because he was just burnt our from losing.

As good as Roberts (when healthy) and Markakis are, they are not team leader guys and they have no experience at winning.

I'm a big believer that you should surround your young players with solid veterans who have won. The Orioles have too many guys with the same laid back personality and I think it was hard for Trembley to hold their feet to the fire because I'm not sure he ever truly felt he could be himself with his clubs for fear of "losing the clubhouse."

Wieters is another guy who's not going to inspire others. It's not really his style. Matusz is too new and hasn't done enough at the big level. Jones is a good guy overall but he's got his own rumors floating around about his on and off field habits.

This team needs a transfusion. MacPhail is going to have to trade off major pieces of his "core" for no other reason then to change the culture.

The Orioles have a culture of losing. Their minor league teams over the years minus a few good teams have pretty much lost more than they won, and the big league team is going about completing it's 13 straight year of losing.

MacPhail has to realize his core group needs a tranfusion of different personalities. Obviously talent is the main ingrediant, but if he keeps the current group, he's going to need a well respected high energy type of manager to lead it.

The bolded parts are like words from my own mouth.:clap3: I feel exacty the same about this team. The only thing I differ with is your last statement. There is no manager on the face of the earth who could turn this sorry assembly or group of players into winners. It is just a bad mix for the players individually and collectively for the reasons you have laid out.

[Gurgi]

I think a losing culture breeds this type of "inmates running the asylum" kind of thing. I've heard some things about Jones, Roberts and even Markakis and I've always wondered if they weren't constantly losing would they have a better attitude?

Continual losing can not be good for anyone. Roberts and Markakis have been on losing teams their entire major league careers. Tejada was burned out when he left because he was just burnt our from losing.

As good as Roberts (when healthy) and Markakis are, they are not team leader guys and they have no experience at winning.

I'm a big believer that you should surround your young players with solid veterans who have won. The Orioles have too many guys with the same laid back personality and I think it was hard for Trembley to hold their feet to the fire because I'm not sure he ever truly felt he could be himself with his clubs for fear of "losing the clubhouse."

Wieters is another guy who's not going to inspire others. It's not really his style. Matusz is too new and hasn't done enough at the big level. Jones is a good guy overall but he's got his own rumors floating around about his on and off field habits.

This team needs a transfusion. MacPhail is going to have to trade off major pieces of his "core" for no other reason then to change the culture.

The Orioles have a culture of losing. Their minor league teams over the years minus a few good teams have pretty much lost more than they won, and the big league team is going about completing it's 13 straight year of losing.

MacPhail has to realize his core group needs a tranfusion of different personalities. Obviously talent is the main ingrediant, but if he keeps the current group, he's going to need a well respected high energy type of manager to lead it.

This makes me annoyed. How much losing will we have to go through?

No saying we ever come out of it. With NY and Boston with big money. Tampa Bay with great scouting and drafting we have our work cut out for us.

We need a run of great draft picks. Wieters may still become a star but we needed him to hit the ground running. He sure looked like he would do it in the minors. Jones looks very close to being a bust. He hits the straight ball very much. Sliders and the bats are afraid.

[Gurgi]

I don;t know for sure why Palmer wouldn't want to be a field manager, but I can guess: The job totally sucks! Any manager faces the problem that he has few tools to influence outcomes. When a player doesn't implement the manager's directives, what are the manager's options. Fire the player and hire a replacement? The manager doesn't have the authority. Fine the player. Can't do that either, thanks to union rules.

Bench the player. Now that's an impotent threat, albeit much cherished by hangouters. A benched player will be back in the lineup soon because the manager has limited options. The player know this. The bench is not stocked with superior MLB players. Many of the regulars are marginally competent. The younger guys must play regularly to develop and cannot be benched except for a game or two.

The only management tool remaining is a Knute Rockne pep talk from time to time. That must go over well with many of our lazy, spoiled millionaires. After the third or fourth pep talk, the cliches become just laughable, not inspining. Pep talks work best with children, not adult professionals.

Imagine that you are managing any business with such limited powers over your employees. Given other options, as Palmer has, why would he want to be a manager? Why would anyone want a job in which success is out of your control?

You know it doesnt have to be this way. If management would slam players regardless of how much they are paying them the manager would have alot more power.

[Gurgi]

Tommy Lasorda. I'd assume a guy with a regular gig on The Baseball Bunch was a nice guy. Dodgers seem to be a recurring theme here.

QUOTE]

Actually, I hear that Lasorda was quite the fire brand. You certainly didn't want to get on his bad side. I think his bit on the Baseball Bunch was in direct contrast with what type of manager he was.

Something people often overlook is Weaver's knowledge of the rules. He understood the game in and out. He also wasn't the type of guy to put guys in motion for a hit and run, instead relying on pitching, defense and OBP. Fundamentals are the heart of a competitive team and no matter who ultimately replace Trembley with, whether a vocal type or someone who who is more laid back, no matter what the case the fundamentals of the game must be stressed and understood by everyone involved. The game is still a TEAM game and no one individual rises above that concept and thus no one individual is not expendable.

This team does have talent-it seems very much like the 2003 Tigers in my opinion. Now if we could find someone like a Leyland who appreciates a challenge, we could have a chance. Every problem creates opporunity, and if somone were able to ressurect this franchise he would hailed as the best in the business.

Steve Stone tells a story in one Oriole book I read that Weaver practiced a trick play for years in spring training. It was for use against a left handed pitcher on the mound. The pitcher had to be young and gullible. A guy at third and a guy at first. The guy at first starts dancing around off first and when the pitcher gets confused the guy breaks for home. I saw Eddie Murray score with this play at the age of 10.

Stone brought it up as an example of how great those teams were. Very sound. Practiced things that a team might use once every two or three years. Yet these things can add several games a year to a teams winnings.

You see any player on the Orioles that seem to be able to do things like that?

Markakis? Roberts? Not really.

[RShack]

I am a bit surprised that no one mentioned Joe Altobelli as a nice guy - had the task of taking over for The Earl and only won a WS the first year. Was 8 games over .500 in 84, then canned after being 3 games over in 85, when The Earl returned and managed 105 games, with a 53-52 record.

Altobelli didn't have to do anything. I've got nothing against the guy, but all he had to do was sit there and make the automatic moves. When Earl quit at the end of '82, all anybody heard was Earl-this and Earl-that, and the players were determined to prove they didn't need Earl to win. All Altobelli had to do was not screw things up. But that team was the dying last gasp of the Oriole Way organization, after Cal the cupboard was bare...

[Gurgi]

I am a bit surprised that no one mentioned Joe Altobelli as a nice guy - had the task of taking over for The Earl and only won a WS the first year. Was 8 games over .500 in 84, then canned after being 3 games over in 85, when The Earl returned and managed 105 games, with a 53-52 record.

Altobelli had a aging, veteran team that was on a mission from god that season. They have said in interviews that they all wanted to prove they could win without Weaver. They had team leaders galore. They really didnt need anyone to manage them. Just someone to write in the lineup.

Most players have stated he was just a laid back calm presence. He also was most of the players minor league manager for several years at Rochester.

The guy was a caretaker manager.

Nice guy but not much to do with why they won that year.

[RShack]

Steve Stone tells a story in one Oriole book I read that Weaver practiced a trick play for years in spring training. It was for use against a left handed pitcher on the mound. The pitcher had to be young and gullible. A guy at third and a guy at first. The guy at first starts dancing around off first and when the pitcher gets confused the guy breaks for home. I saw Eddie Murray score with this play at the age of 10.

They had a play where the guy on 1st danced around and then fell over on purpose... and when the stupid pitcher threw over there, the guy on 3rd scampered home. I think Earl did that just to prove that pitchers are stupid, since Palmer's attitude was that hitters are stupid...

[Gurgi]

They had a play where the guy on 1st danced around and then fell over on purpose... and when the stupid pitcher threw over there, the guy on 3rd scampered home. I think Earl did that just to prove that pitchers were stupid, since Palmer was always saying hitters were stupid...

Dont you miss the days the Orioles practiced things like that. And were smart enough to care to do it? Why would a player practice this stuff today? They only pay for the stats that get the paychecks.

[George]

Dont you miss the days the Orioles practiced things like that. And were smart enough to care to do it? Why would a player practice this stuff today? They only pay for the stats that get the paychecks.

You nailed it. That's why we will not see the "Oriole Way" again. Shall we blame management?

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,...." Fans don't pay to see little ball, at least not enough fans to pay the big salaries and make the big profits.

[Frobby]

I think a losing culture breeds this type of "inmates running the asylum" kind of thing. I've heard some things about Jones, Roberts and even Markakis and I've always wondered if they weren't constantly losing would they have a better attitude?

Continual losing can not be good for anyone. Roberts and Markakis have been on losing teams their entire major league careers. Tejada was burned out when he left because he was just burnt our from losing.

As good as Roberts (when healthy) and Markakis are, they are not team leader guys and they have no experience at winning.

I'm a big believer that you should surround your young players with solid veterans who have won. The Orioles have too many guys with the same laid back personality and I think it was hard for Trembley to hold their feet to the fire because I'm not sure he ever truly felt he could be himself with his clubs for fear of "losing the clubhouse."

Wieters is another guy who's not going to inspire others. It's not really his style. Matusz is too new and hasn't done enough at the big level. Jones is a good guy overall but he's got his own rumors floating around about his on and off field habits.

This team needs a transfusion. MacPhail is going to have to trade off major pieces of his "core" for no other reason then to change the culture.

The Orioles have a culture of losing. Their minor league teams over the years minus a few good teams have pretty much lost more than they won, and the big league team is going about completing it's 13 straight year of losing.

MacPhail has to realize his core group needs a tranfusion of different personalities. Obviously talent is the main ingrediant, but if he keeps the current group, he's going to need a well respected high energy type of manager to lead it.

I don't know, Tony. I have been hearing this for years. I've seen numerous veterans brought in here to provide leadership and "change the culture." Conine, Millar, Surhoff, Tejada (1st time), Javy Lopez, Millwood. The only position players on this whole team who were here in 2008 are Roberts, Markakis, Scott and Jones.

If you ask me, the way you change a losing culture is by winning. But I think a fiery manager, who REALLY makes players feel uncomfortable when they are making mental mistakes or not going 100%, may help this team.