It's time for Andy to get "MacPhailed"

[Dipper9]

Wins and losses are fact and can't be disputed. What many of us try and point out every time this thread is started -- which is about once a week -- is that you can't look exclusively at wins and losses. You have to look at talent acquired and developed.

Dayton Moore is in his 5th year as GM of the Royals. His teams don't win. His team isn't likely to win this year and it wouldn't be surprising if they ended up with a worse record than the Orioles. Should he be fired? Probably not because the talent in his system is unmatched.

AM hasn't put together a system anywhere near the quality of the Royals but it is much better than it has been. Is that good enough to overcome the w/l record to this point? Probably not but it needs to be recognized.

If such threads were more balanced, it probably wouldn't provoke the endless back and forth. Of course, this is a message board, so maybe some people enjoy it.

Every time I golf I get better. However, I still stink and can't shoot below 115. If this was my job, I'd be fired.

Strange analogy, but I find no solace in being better than the 2007 Orioles, when it still results in a 5th place finish and our organization is STILL behind the other 4 teams in the East.

[Tony-OH]

Yea...I am so f'ing tired of hearing the whining about our division and unbalanced schedule.

The bottom line is this...We have as big of a disadvantage as any team in MLB but what do the Orioles do about it? Are they trying to invent new ways of doing things? Are they throwing major dollars on amateur talent? Are they going out and being aggressive and creative? NO...They do the same bs they did before. Poor middling FA contracts, ignore international stuff, invest too little in scouting, etc...

When you are in this division, you figure that they would be doing everything they can to be contenders...when the reality is that they are doing very little.

That's just wrong. We along with the Blue Jays and Rays are in a distinct disadvantage playing with an unbalanced schedule in the AL East. It's not just something you can sweep under the rug and say deal with it. Anyone can beat anyone in a five or seven game series, but a team with a $200 million payroll is going to win enough games to make it to the playoffs every year, just like the Yankees have in 15 of the last 16 years. Then you have the Red Sox who play with a $150 million plus roster and they6 have been to the playoffs 8 out of the last 10 years. So yes, the Orioles have made their mistakes and I agree with you about McPhail and the Orioles organization as whole for the most part, but we have a distinct disadvantage that is not share by anyone other than the Jays and Rays. If we were playing in just about any other Division we'd be thinking we were a lot closer to competing.

Baseball's financial and playoff system is a joke, but unfortunately, it's only screwing three cities so who cares outside of those cities?

[Sports Guy]

That's just wrong. We along with the Blue Jays and Rays are in a distinct disadvantage playing with an unbalanced schedule in the AL East

Which is why I said "as big of a"...But, we don't get to play ourselves, so we are actually at a larger disadvantage.

It's not just something you can sweep under the rug and say deal with it

In the context I am discussing it, yes you can. Whether it is fair or not is one argument...When the team is doing anything about it is another. TB and Tor are doing something about it..The Orioles aren't. The excuse isn't valid in that context.

[Tony-OH]

Which is why I said "as big of a"...But, we don't get to play ourselves, so we are actually at a larger disadvantage. In the context I am discussing it, yes you can. Whether it is fair or not is one argument...When the team is doing anything about it is another. TB and Tor are doing something about it..The Orioles aren't. The excuse isn't valid in that context.

The Rays have been to the playoffs twice in 13 years and the Blue Jays haven't been to the playoffs since 1993. The Blue Jays have a losing record this year because they are 9-16 against the Red Sox, Yankees and Rays. They are trying, and they might even have a better way ahead then the Orioles, but MLB ridiculously unfair financial system, schedule, and playoffs gives them little opportunity for sustained success. They might get a magical year, and they might even fight for a WC once in awhile, but the stats show that year and year out the Red Sox and Yankees are going to be the Division winners and WC in most seasons.

[Sports Guy]

The Rays have been to the playoffs twice in 13 years and the Blue Jays haven't been to the playoffs since 1993. The Blue Jays have a losing record this year because they are 9-16 against the Red Sox, Yankees and Rays. They are trying, and they might even have a better way ahead then the Orioles, but MLB ridiculously unfair financial system, schedule, and playoffs gives them little opportunity for sustained success. They might get a magical year, and they might even fight for a WC once in awhile, but the stats show that year and year out the Red Sox and Yankees are going to be the Division winners and WC in most seasons.

The Rays were awful a very poor organization for much of that 13 years, just as the Jays have been as well but at least the Jays were a competitive, above 500 team.

When you are a poor organization, you won't compete with Boston and NY.

But TB has gotten smarter and done things the right way and have been in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and are a contender this year.

Toronto is building a very strong MiL system and doing what they need to do to have sustained success in this division..Having a true pipeline of talent and doing things the right way is what can lead you to sustained success plus, Toronto is going to be in for some big infusions of cash as well.

I am sorry but its unneccassary whining to bring up our unbalanced schedule until this organization does what it takes to make the unbalanced schedule an actual issue. Right now, its a non issue because the Orioles can't beat Pittsburgh, much less the Yankees.

[SrMeowMeow]

Yes, we are at an unfair disadvantage that should be fixed, and we have every right to complain about it.

Yes, this means that a GM that can build a playoff contender in the NL might struggle to build a .500 club in the AL East.

Yes, this means MacPhail and our previous GMs have probably been judged too harshly.

So what? If you think the difficulty is impossible, don't take the job. If you do take the job, be aware that it's going to be difficult, and be prepared to do what it takes to win.

Bottom line, I think MacPhail could easily be an above-average GM. But he hasn't shown any indication that he's up to this challenge.

[Stotle]

The Rays were awful a very poor organization for much of that 13 years, just as the Jays have been as well but at least the Jays were a competitive, above 500 team.

When you are a poor organization, you won't compete with Boston and NY.

But TB has gotten smarter and done things the right way and have been in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and are a contender this year.

Toronto is building a very strong MiL system and doing what they need to do to have sustained success in this division..Having a true pipeline of talent and doing things the right way is what can lead you to sustained success plus, Toronto is going to be in for some big infusions of cash as well.

I am sorry but its unneccassary whining to bring up our unbalanced schedule until this organization does what it takes to make the unbalanced schedule an actual issue. Right now, its a non issue because the Orioles can't beat Pittsburgh, much less the Yankees.

I think the best way for me to sum up my personal feelings is "Yeah, it stinks to be in this format (division/schedule) but that doesn't mean Baltimore shouldn't be doing better, and it certainly doesn't mean Baltimore should be falling further BEHIND the likes of Toronto and Tampa."

The Jays have been a .500 or better team many times in the past decade and are now loading up on cheap young talent. That really stings. I don't know if their return on investment will be sound, but man it would be fun to have that system and that devotion to amateur talent acquisition from the front office.

Tampa was shrugged off by TONS of posters on here, claiming they would be terrible due to the loss of Crawford, Pena and the bullpen. Their #1 pick talent is drying up. Wrong. They have been picking at the bottom of the 1st Round for three years now and continue to have one of the best systems in the game. You want to talk about the O's being constrained financially? Tampa has those issues and then some. Absolutely no reason for Baltimore to be this far behind Tampa's system, still!

[Stotle]

Yes, we are at an unfair disadvantage that should be fixed, and we have every right to complain about it.

Yes, this means that a GM that can build a playoff contender in the NL might struggle to build a .500 club in the AL East.

Yes, this means MacPhail and our previous GMs have probably been judged too harshly.

So what? If you think the difficulty is impossible, don't take the job. If you do take the job, be aware that it's going to be difficult, and be prepared to do what it takes to win.

Bottom line, I think MacPhail could easily be an above-average GM. But he hasn't shown any indication that he's up to this challenge.

It's like a baseball coach complaining about how tough it is to recruit to Boston College (example, not something BC complains about) in such a tough conference and at a school where the program doesn't get as much love/attention from the Athletic Department as say the UVA or UNC teams.

[Stotle]

The Rays have been to the playoffs twice in 13 years and the Blue Jays haven't been to the playoffs since 1993. The Blue Jays have a losing record this year because they are 9-16 against the Red Sox, Yankees and Rays. They are trying, and they might even have a better way ahead then the Orioles, but MLB ridiculously unfair financial system, schedule, and playoffs gives them little opportunity for sustained success. They might get a magical year, and they might even fight for a WC once in awhile, but the stats show that year and year out the Red Sox and Yankees are going to be the Division winners and WC in most seasons.

Isn't that like saying "The Red Sox have only won the World Series twice in the last 90 years, so everything can't be THAT out of whack"? Tampa's current front office came in and turned things around in a much worse situation than Baltimore, with fewer resources. Friedman took over as President of Baseball Operations (serves as GM, like Baltimore) in 2005 and the Rays were in the playoffs in 2008. Their farm system as been among the best in baseball for the past five years.

[Tony-OH]

Isn't that like saying "The Red Sox have only won the World Series twice in the last 90 years, so everything can't be THAT out of whack"? Tampa's current front office came in and turned things around in a much worse situation than Baltimore, with fewer resources. Friedman took over as President of Baseball Operations (serves as GM, like Baltimore) in 2005 and the Rays were in the playoffs in 2008. Their farm system as been among the best in baseball for the past five years.

Tell you what, when Tampa runs off playoff appearances in 8 of ten years I'll be impressed by their ability to compete with the big boys. Tampa is a well-run organization that is in a distinct disadvantage of playing in the AL East against the payroll monster Red $ox Yankee$. I'm not for one second going to argue that they have not done things better than the Orioles, and I'm not arguing that the Orioles can not be run better, they certainly can, but there is absolutely no way anyone is ever going to convince me that the Jays, Rays and Orioles don't have a distinct disadvantage to making the playoffs every year due to MLB's unfair playing field.

It appears the Rays and Jays have a better plan to be competitive in the AL East than the Orioles, but their margin of error is a lot smaller than say a team playing in the AL Central or West. That's indisputable.

Being in the AL East is not the only reason the Orioles have stunk for the last 13 years, but it's certainly part of the reason they have finished below .500 for 13 years straight and it will continue to be a big reason why the Orioles have little hope of ever being a consistent contender again.

[Sports Guy]

Tell you what, when Tampa runs off playoff appearances in 8 of ten years I'll be impressed by their ability to compete with the big boys. Tampa is a well-run organization that is in a distinct disadvantage of playing in the AL East against the payroll monster Red $ox Yankee$. I'm not for one second going to argue that they have not done things better than the Orioles, and I'm not arguing that the Orioles can not be run better, they certainly can, but there is absolutely no way anyone is ever going to convince me that the Jays, Rays and Orioles don't have a distinct disadvantage to making the playoffs every year due to MLB unfair playing field.

It appears the Rays and Jays have a better plan to be competitive in the AL East than the Orioles, but their margin of error is a lot smaller than say a team playing in the AL Central or West. That's indisputable.

Being in the AL East is not the only reason the Orioles have stunk for the last 13 years, but it's certainly part of the reason they have finished below .500 for 13 years straight and it will continue to be a big reason why the Orioles have little hope of ever being a consistent contender again.

I think we are arguing 2 different things.

You are focused on the disadvantage of the schedule and we are focused on how awful the organization is.

Its 2 different discussions but really, if you are going to run things poorly, your division is meaningless.

[Stotle]

Tell you what, when Tampa runs off playoff appearances in 8 of ten years I'll be impressed by their ability to compete with the big boys. Tampa is a well-run organization that is in a distinct disadvantage of playing in the AL East against the payroll monster Red $ox Yankee$. I'm not for one second going to argue that they have not done things better than the Orioles, and I'm not arguing that the Orioles can not be run better, they certainly can, but there is absolutely no way anyone is ever going to convince me that the Jays, Rays and Orioles don't have a distinct disadvantage to making the playoffs every year due to MLB's unfair playing field.

It appears the Rays and Jays have a better plan to be competitive in the AL East than the Orioles, but their margin of error is a lot smaller than say a team playing in the AL Central or West. That's indisputable.

Being in the AL East is not the only reason the Orioles have stunk for the last 13 years, but it's certainly part of the reason they have finished below .500 for 13 years straight and it will continue to be a big reason why the Orioles have little hope of ever being a consistent contender again.

8 of 10 playoff appearnces in a decade is the STANDARD for being a competitive organization? That seems like a mighty steep grading scale, no?

I agree the Os/Rays/Jays have a distinct disadvantage, but it isn't going to make me tolerant of Baltimore not doing little things to get better. That's my only point.

Once Baltimore shows they are a solid organization -- let's just set it at "2000-2009 Toronto" -- I'll start complaining about them not making the playoffs. Bottom line right now is that this team isn't making the playoffs in any division.

[Spoonless]

80% playoff rate is a pretty ridiculous standard. If TB can pull off 3-4 playoff appearances with another 3-4 seasons where they're in serious wild card contention late in the season over 10 years, that would be a great success in the division.

[Tony-OH]

8 of 10 playoff appearnces in a decade is the STANDARD for being a competitive organization? That seems like a mighty steep grading scale, no?

I agree the Os/Rays/Jays have a distinct disadvantage, but it isn't going to make me tolerant of Baltimore not doing little things to get better. That's my only point.

Once Baltimore shows they are a solid organization -- let's just set it at "2000-2009 Toronto" -- I'll start complaining about them not making the playoffs. Bottom line right now is that this team isn't making the playoffs in any division.

That's the current standard in the AL East. The Red Sox have been to the playoffs eight of ten years and the Yankees have been in 10 of 10. Reality sucks but it's the truth.

I agree with not being tolerant of the O's missteps. I'm not making excuses for them, but when people say that the MLB un-level playing field is not important I just want to make sure people understand it is important and always will be a concern for the Orioles as long as the current rules and regulations are kept.

I also agree that we would not be making the playoffs in any Division, but I would argue that we would be a lot closer in the AL Central then we are in the AL East.

[Sports Guy]

That's the current standard in the AL East. The Red Sox have been to the playoffs eight of ten years and the Yankees have been in 10 of 10. Reality sucks but it's the truth.

I agree with not being tolerant of the O's missteps. I'm not making excuses for them, but when people say that the MLB un-level playing field is not important I just want to make sure people understand it is important and always will be a concern for the Orioles as long as the current rules and regulations are kept.

I also agree that we would not be making the playoffs in any Division, but I would argue that we would be a lot closer in the AL Central then we are in the AL East.

But doesn't that right there render the division argument meaningless right now?

There are no excuses for how bad this organization is. You can't justify it.