Ripken and Palmer called some of most overrated players of all time

[eb45]

Why anyone reads Bleacher Report is beyond me.

There's an argument that Cal is overrated because of The Streak and longevity over quality, but that, as others have said, ignores his defensive prowess, as well as the fact that he was really, really good during his peak as well. 92-01 Cal is borderline HoF quality with Cal's peak-level defense, 82-91 Cal is the best shortstop ever not named Wagner. Put them together and he's arguably still the second best SS ever (counting ARod as a 3B).

Really, the argument to be made is that Arky Vaughan is underrated because I think he's the only one who has an argument for being better than Cal other than Wagner.

As for Palmer, I'm not going to give Bleacher Report the page views but if they're arguing his K rates and such then they're missing the point, because Palmer is a really useful case study of the flaws in DIP metrics.

[24fps]

Just skimming, it seems like one of the common themes is this guy is anti-"compiling," that is, racking up counting stats by playing a lot of years. See Yaz, Lou Brock, Johnny Damon, Sutter, Nolan Ryan, etc. But I think he's missing that there's a big difference between someone like Yaz or Ripken and someone like Damon (though personally I think Damon has been an underrated player all throughout his career).

But then he discounts Ralph Kiner, for not playing long enough so his good years were too concentrated thus distorting the assessment of his true ability. Whatever the heck that might be. Same general approach to Koufax.

IMO this list is just attention-getting rubbish.

[TGO]

Overrated is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. The main argument that Palmer is overrated is that he had one of the great defensive teams of all time behind him during the prime of his career. I guess I see that, but I promise you, the guy was a great pitcher. The argument on Cal was that he really wasn't that good a hitter. Some truth there, but you have to consider how few good-hitting shortstops there were when Cal was playing, especially in the first half of his career before other teams began to emulate what the Orioles had done with Cal. And what the writer misses is that Cal is vastly underrated as a defensive player. He is in the top 10 defensive players of all time in terms of dWAR.

While I am too young to have seen Palmer (other than his failed ST comeback that one year...when was that, early 90s?), everything I have heard about (and from) him tells me that he shouldn't be punished for having pitched to contact. He was smart. Had he not had that defense he clearly had the stuff to strike out more guys. He may not have thrown quite so many innings doing that, but his ERAs and win totals would probably have been around the same.

[eb45]

It wouldn't be a "most overrated" list if they didn't whine about both lack of a decline phase and prolonged decline phase. Every player should be Mickey Mantle I guess.

[OFFNY]

o

Right in the middle of Ripken Jr's career (about 1991), I believe that he was slightly overrated offensively, and very underrated defensively. On defense, Cal was somewhat of a Peyton Manning-type player in that he was always thinking about every possibility on every play on every pitch. He was the ultimate student of the game, and he very rarely got caught with his finger up his butt on any single play. Once when Cal made a very rare mental error during a game, he "punished" himself by doing almost 3 times as much cardiovascular exercise that he usually did after the game. A reporter who was with him and watching him run all of those extra miles on the treadmill asked Cal what that was all about. Ripken replied, "So that the mental error that I made in today's game won't happen again."

Currently, I believe that the word "overrated" gets thrown around too easily in regard to Ripken, Jr. due to the fact that his detractor's immediately point to his streak as what he is most known for ...... and hence, they presume that he wasn't that good in all of the other areas of the game. Just because Cal's first accomplishment on his resume is his streak doesn't necessarily mean that he is therefore overrated in all of the other departments of the game. It's kind of like the reverse of saying that because a 7-foot basketball player cannot make free throws, he is therefore as good as Wilt Chamberlain, because Wilt struggled with free throws in his career. Yes, the player has something in common with Wilt (poor free throw shooting), but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is the same caliber of player overall.

[gtown]

I thought the piece was well-done. Lots of valid points on all players. I agree with some who have posted that Ripken is overrated offensively and underrated defensively. Because of the streak though, I agree--great player somewhat deified.

The one on his list I most disagreed with is George Brett.

[TiredofLosing20]

Wow Jeter is about 19 Less wins than Ripken. That is a bit shocking to me... 3 less years but he isn't going to get even remotely close to Ripken.

On a different note... Babe Ruth was pretty good offensively.

[SilentJames]

Its the bleacher report..do you expect actual good research?

I believe Cal is regarded, in terms of WAR, as one of the top 30ish players ever and the second greatest SS ever.

Unless people are saying Cal was one of the 5-10 greatest players ever, I am not sure how anyone can call him overrated.

Seriously, I mean to be statistically in the top 30 of all players, all time, and then to be in the top THREE at your position - yeah dude pretty much deserves the accolades he gets. He played on crappy teams, if he had Jeter's hardware there would be no debate at all.

[NJOriolesFan]

I'd like to see a list of the most underrated players of all time. That's far more interesting.

I think Chipper Jones is extremely underrated. Number 35 all-time in WAR among offensive players. I think everyone knows he has been a very good player and he will make the Hall of Fame, but he's on a higher tier than people realize. Among active playes, Jones is significantly ahead of Jeter, but I don't think many see it that way.

Some people will be annoyed by this, but Mike Mussina is extremely underrated IMO. He's 24th in WAR among pitchers, well ahead of Jim Palmer. People get hung up on the fact that he never won a Cy Young or a World Series ring, but the guy is one of the most consistently excellent pitchers ever to play. I'm not sure I accept that he was actually better than Palmer, but he was every bit as good.

I think the most underrated player of all-time is Stan Musial. I think Frank Robinson isn't that far behind as being underrated.

[Palmoripken]

The casual fan just knows Cal as the guy who broke Gehrig's record and played in 2632 consecutive games which ignores the fact he was a Hall of Famer player aside from that. I wasn't aware of how great he is sabermatrically though .Anyhow thing is Cal proved two things: A big guy can play short and play it well, and two that shortstops don't have to be all glove, no hit. He made it alot easier for guys like A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada, Garciparra, Tulowitzki, etc. I think the best shortstop of all time is Wagner but Cal's easily top 3 or 2 at the position.

[El Gordo]

I don't see how you can say one of the top 5 players at his position all time, is overated, especially when after that you consider the streak. Even without the sreak I can't think of more than one or two SS who were better. Now if you want to compare Cal to Bae Ruth maybe, but then I don't think I would have wanted to see Babe at SS.

[CA-ORIOLE]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/896497-cal-ripken-jr-nolan-ryan-and-the-40-most-overrated-players-of-all-time

Interesting article, some of these players he lists including Cal and Plamer I don't understand. Among others are Nolan Ryan, Cy Young, Ernie Banks, and Pete Rose, and several players playing today.

I agree with both. Palmer is painful to admit and I won't get into Cal, but if you look at DIPS/FIP etc. you can make clear case he was overrated.

[Tony-OH]

Its the bleacher report..do you expect actual good research?

I believe Cal is regarded, in terms of WAR, as one of the top 30ish players ever and the second greatest SS ever.

Unless people are saying Cal was one of the 5-10 greatest players ever, I am not sure how anyone can call him overrated.

Nail to the head here. If anyone doubts Cal's HoF credentials they are crazy.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Nail to the head here. If anyone doubts Cal's HoF credentials they are crazy.

HOF credentials and overrated are two different things imo. I don't doubt eithers HOF credentials.

[TonySoprano]

Brady gets a mention

Brady Anderson

I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think many people confuse his 50 home run season as meaning he is one of the all-time great sluggers in the game.

I believe most baseball fans recognize that season as one great season in an overall mediocre career.

Nail to the head here. If anyone doubts Cal's HoF credentials they are crazy.

In fairness, this was his conclusion

I'm not saying Ripken wasn't a great player or even a Hall of Fame player; I'm just saying he's not as great as a lot of people choose to remember him.

Palmer's inclusion was based on a different blog that named him The Most Overrated Pitcher of All Time