Ripken and Palmer called some of most overrated players of all time

[Can_of_corn]

For me, there are three things I really value in a starter. Starting games(obviously) pitching deep into games, and limiting runs(era). Sounds simple

I looked at Palmer, Seaver and Mussina's career stats side by side and what jumps out at me is how many times Palmer led the league in GS, CG, IP and ERA.

Throw in the fact the he led the league in multiple categories, multiple years and

he's ahead of Seaver. Mussina's record pales in comparison.

Yep. You can look at Mussina's and Palmer's numbers and they look pretty close. Then you compare them to their peer group and that is where Palmer shines. He dominated his era in a way Mussina never did.

[LOUDOUN_BIRD]

I was 8 years old to 18 in the 70's, and not near as fanatic a fan as now... Palmer may have been a great fielder, but so was Moose. Very talented and ALWAYS square to the plate and ready to field after his delivery.

Hitting loses meaning between the two. Who knows what Mike may have done.

EDIT: Less convincing stat for sure... Mussina won 7 GGs, Palmer 4...

Good point - well if I had 4 Mike Mussina's in my rotation I would be very, very happy - even with Sid Ponson in the 5th spot. I just think Palmer was more dominant when he was on

[LOUDOUN_BIRD]

I think you forget how good a fielder Mussina was...and how much does Palmer's career OPS+ of 18 really help his cause?

Mussina is tremendously underrated. He's should be a no doubt HOFer, but I can see him becoming the next Blyleven for the very same reasons that Frobby outlined.

He was awesome no question about it - I just think at their peaks Palmer was more dominant - but Mussina was a prime pitcher a legit #1

[Sports Guy]

Palmer felt Moose was better...and we all know how much Palmer loves to talk about himself.

I totally agree with Frobby about Jones and Moose...they are 2 GREAT, first ballot HOF players and yet they are completely underrated.

[Sports Guy]

Ok...Cal is 26th ALL TIME in terms of WAR for position players.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

There were 13 pitchers that had a higher WAR than Cal...One of them being the new HOFer and another very underrated player...Blyleven.

So, between pitchers and hitters, Cal is one of the top 40 players EVER...and he is overrated? Wow.

[cindyluvsbrady]

This is AWFUL!!!!:angryfire:

[Can_of_corn]

Palmer felt Moose was better...and we all know how much Palmer loves to talk about himself.

I totally agree with Frobby about Jones and Moose...they are 2 GREAT, first ballot HOF players and yet they are completely underrated.

Sorry I don't buy that Moose is underrated or a first ballot guy. You can make a case that Palmer was the best pitcher of his generation, Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team in New York.

Where does Mussina fit amongst his peers?

He isn't #1, that would be Maddux.

He isn't #2, that would be Clemens.

He isn't #3, that would be Johnson.

I wouldn't take him over Pedro, that is for sure.

I would group him in the second tier behind the above guys. With folks like Glavine, Pettitte, and Smoltz.

That isn't even including relievers like Hoffman and Rivera.

I see five guaranteed first ballot guys there (not counting steroid backlash). Then I see some guys that will have to wait.

I think his legacy is where it should be. I do not think the knowledgeable baseball fan discounts what he did.

[Sports Guy]

Sorry I don't buy that Moose is underrated or a first ballot guy. You can make a case that Palmer was the best pitcher of his generation, Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team in New York.

Where does Mussina fit amongst his peers?

He isn't #1, that would be Maddux.

He isn't #2, that would be Clemens.

He isn't #3, that would be Johnson.

I wouldn't take him over Pedro, that is for sure.

I would group him in the second tier behind the above guys. With folks like Glavine, Pettitte, and Smoltz.

That isn't even including relievers like Hoffman and Rivera.

I see five guaranteed first ballot guys there (not counting steroid backlash). Then I see some guys that will have to wait.

I think his legacy is where it should be. I do not think the knowledgeable baseball fan discounts what he did.

That's fine...you are just wrong about that.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_pitch_career.shtml

24th all time in terms of WAR for pitchers...15 spots higher than Palmer BTW.

That's a first ballot HOFer....And no, not better than RHJ, Clemens, Pedro or Maddux...4 of the top 23 ever..Moose pitched more than Pedro, so I think that gap would be bigger than 1 WAR, although being durable is a skill not often discussed.

[weams]

Sorry I don't buy that Moose is underrated or a first ballot guy. You can make a case that Palmer was the best pitcher of his generation, Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team in New York.

Where does Mussina fit amongst his peers?

He isn't #1, that would be Maddux.

He isn't #2, that would be Clemens.

He isn't #3, that would be Johnson.

I wouldn't take him over Pedro, that is for sure.

I would group him in the second tier behind the above guys. With folks like Glavine, Pettitte, and Smoltz.

That isn't even including relievers like Hoffman and Rivera.

I see five guaranteed first ballot guys there (not counting steroid backlash). Then I see some guys that will have to wait.

I think his legacy is where it should be. I do not think the knowledgeable baseball fan discounts what he did.

In so many ways this is correct

[Can_of_corn]

That's fine...you are just wrong about that.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_pitch_career.shtml

24th all time in terms of WAR for pitchers...15 spots higher than Palmer BTW.

Did you not read past the first sentence I wrote? He is 24th, care to tell the people who is at numbers 2, 8, 12 and 23? How long did it take #13 to get in? Don't use being #24 on a list as proof of being a first ballot guy when the guy at #13 almost didn't make it at all.

[Sports Guy]

Did you not read past the first sentence I wrote? He is 24th, care to tell the people who is at numbers 2, 8, 12 and 23? How long did it take #13 to get in? Don't use being #24 on a list as proof of being a first ballot guy when the guy at #13 almost didn't make it at all.

So, because the morons who vote on the HOF didn't put #13 in quick enough, that makes the stat meaningless?

That's just a horrible way to look at things.

Its not really worth debating this with if obvious, factual evidence is going to be shunned by you.

[Can_of_corn]

So, because the morons who vote on the HOF didn't put #13 in quick enough, that makes the stat meaningless?

That's just a horrible way to look at things.

Its not really worth debating this with if obvious, factual evidence is going to be shunned by you.

Two facts:

One-he was not a dominant pitcher compared to his peer group.

Two-You tried to use a stat to prove first ballot status that had someone ranked significantly higher then Mussina barely make the hall. A lot of the same "Morons" that didn't vote for Blyleven will still have votes when Mike is up. You stat is not meaningless but it is also not all encompassing.

I am not saying Mussina was not a great pitcher, and if had pitched in the 80's he would be a first ballot guy. He has too much competition.

[24fps]

I made it about 15 players into the slide show... Yazstremski? Really???? "He only had 8 incredible seasons out of 23. WAH!" Um yeah... that's about how any GREAT player's career would go.

Troll article

Agree.

From page 1 of the web article:

Rather, I am saying that just maybe they are remembered as being a greater player than what their stats actually represent.

From the Palmer page before he shunted the argument off to someone else:

Palmer is considered by many to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time, an assessment that I readily agree with by strictly evaluation of his stats.

I don't know about you, but I can't walk to the Post Office without tripping over three bloggers trying to stir up enough controversy to be heard over the noise generated by the rest of the army of bloggers trying to stir up enough controversy...etc., etc.....

Troll article indeed.

[Sports Guy]

Two facts:

One-he was not a dominant pitcher compared to his peer group.

Two-You tried to use a stat to prove first ballot status that had someone ranked significantly higher then Mussina barely make the hall. A lot of the same "Morons" that didn't vote for Blyleven will still have votes when Mike is up. You stat is not meaningless but it is also not all encompassing.

I am not saying Mussina was not a great pitcher, and if had pitched in the 80's he would be a first ballot guy. He has too much competition.

The fact that you could pick out one guy shows how behind the times the voters are.

And the fact that Moose wasn't greater than arguably 4 of top 20 pitchers ever doesn't diminish him...and btw, one of those guys isn't likely to get in because of steroids...which is another feather in Moose's cap..the fact that he was never connected with roids in any way, while he was pitching to practically everyone who was. He was in an offensive era with smaller ballparks.

He is a clear first ballot HOFer...but I don't think he will be one..not because he shouldn't but because the voters are morons.

[Lucky Jim]

I'm not clear on how B-Ref calculates pitcher WAR, but if it bases it on defense-independent ERA (something FIP-like) like Fangraphs, then the fact that Mussina is ranked higher than Palmer can almost entirely be based upon the fact that Palmer has an anomalous spread between his ERA and his defense-independent ERA. You have to accept the premise that the statistic captures their relative true-value to buy into that ranking. In other words, there's a fundamental assumption underlying it.