"Defending the Status Quo?"

[Sports Guy]

Honestly I lean towards a rebuild like you but I can see why other posters disagree...I mean SG can you outline for us when the perpetual rebuild ends...I think that will help other posters see your point clearer because I think you understand that the rebuilding we have endured for the last 15 years is wearing on people.

But of course your gonna say we never went about it in the right fashion and I agree completely but even if you go back two years do you remeber the hope the board had when the young pitchers were in the minor leagues and he made the EM and Miguel trade yet all those guys are here and were calling for yet another rebuild.

I mean if you look at all the value this team lost by moving our young pitchers to the big league and watching everyone fail....I would argue we would be much better off if we had traded those guys while they were in the minor leagues for guys like Shawn Marcum and Zack Grienke and other veteran pitchers.

The Orioles failure rate for young pitchers is almost 100% so what makes you think the next rebuild will produce young pitchers that will actually have good results...At this point it's hard not to agree with the posters who want to go all in...What is gonna make the next rebuild any different from the last one?

(I agree we need to rebuild this team from the ground up and in saying that it doesn't mean we have to trade every asset just the ones who will have more future value in terms of what we get in return)

I really just want your input into these questions.

The Orioles have never rebuilt.

Right now, we have a GM that seemingly gets it. He understands that you have to get into the international market. He understands that scouting and player development have to be better.

If you trade off some of our pieces and in the next 2 years, bring in a lot more amateur talent than normal(and that means spending more money on it as well, which I do think will happen), you have then started to create a true long term foundation.

That is the difference between what AM tried to do and what can be done now.

AM did a good job of putting together a good foundation for a contending team...but he never finished the job. He was like a contractor that started the project and decided to roll out, with money in his pocket, half way through it.

Now, PA is a big reason for that and that will likely hurt DD as well. But DD has been able to do what he wants with the amateur side of things in terms of the beginning stages of his plan.

Problem is, he doesn't likely have the same freedom when it comes to the ML team.

[JTrea81]

I have been mostly staying out of this thread, but I have to jump in here to say that it is simply wrong to think that a good rebuilding job means trading every existing asset. A team can rebuild while keeping some of its assets, it just has to be strategic about who goes and who stays.

When you look at what you need to accomplish and what you have for talent and the age of that talent, you'll find that Wieters would need to be traded because of the haul he could bring back rather than wasting his best years on a rebuilding team. Reynolds and Guthrie can be free agents after this season so they are on the block.

The only "core" players I see keeping are Markakis if you don't want to eat salary and Britton as he's still young enough to have several prime years left starting in 2014-2015.

[Sports Guy]

When you look at what you need to accomplish and what you have for talent and the age of that talent, you'll find that Wieters would need to be traded because of the haul he could bring back rather than wasting his best years on a rebuilding team. Reynolds and Guthrie can be free agents after this season so they are on the block.

The only "core" players I see keeping are Markakis if you don't want to eat salary and Britton as he's still young enough to have several prime years left starting in 2014-2015.

Trading Wieters now is pretty dumb.

His value is only likely to go up over the next 1-1.5 years. You don't trade a guy like that unless he is at his peak and right now, he's not, in all likelihood.. So, that idea is awful.

[mikegallo]

The Orioles have never rebuilt.

Right now, we have a GM that seemingly gets it. He understands that you have to get into the international market. He understands that scouting and player development have to be better.

If you trade off some of our pieces and in the next 2 years, bring in a lot more amateur talent than normal(and that means spending more money on it as well, which I do think will happen), you have then started to create a true long term foundation.

That is the difference between what AM tried to do and what can be done now.

AM did a good job of putting together a good foundation for a contending team...but he never finished the job. He was like a contractor that started the project and decided to roll out, with money in his pocket, half way through it.

Now, PA is a big reason for that and that will likely hurt DD as well. But DD has been able to do what he wants with the amateur side of things in terms of the beginning stages of his plan.

Problem is, he doesn't likely have the same freedom when it comes to the ML team.

So you think instead of building on AM's foundation we should tear a good chunk of it down?

How do we spend more money on amatuer talent with the new CBA which caps such spending?

I agree with pretty much everything you said but with Buck here and PA getting older how realistic is it really?

Wouldn't you rather see us spend big on Prince and Jackson then add some more big pieces next offseason with the goal of contending in 2013, rather then a half-as* rebuild that we have seen so many times before?

[24fps]

There are an infinite number of intermediate solutions, and all real teams end up in that middle ground. The O's have chosen poorly in the last 15 years, and through most of the past 30. But past failures don't necessarily drive you to radical extremes, and they shouldn't.

Thank you for that too.

[Sports Guy]

So you think instead of building on AM's foundation we should tear a good chunk of it down?

His foundation, in some areas, hasn't turned out. So, you keep a lot of it but I don't consider Johnson or Guthrie to be part of a true championship core. Jones could be but he fetches you the most talent, is close to free agency and would require too much to extend, so he needs to go.

How do we spend more money on amatuer talent with the new CBA which caps such spending?

You spend more than what we have been spending and get a lot more international talent.

I agree with pretty much everything you said but with Buck here and PA getting older how realistic is it really?

Half of it is realistic...Whether the ML aspect of things is realistic remains to be seen but I tend to think not.

Wouldn't you rather see us spend big on Prince and Jackson then add some more big pieces next offseason with the goal of contending in 2013, rather then a half-as* rebuild that we have seen so many times before

If the Orioles aren't going to be smart and do things the way they should, sure, go out and spend money on these guys. At least do something to get closer to contending than doing what they are doing now.

[JTrea81]

Trading Wieters now is pretty dumb.

His value is only likely to go up over the next 1-1.5 years. You don't trade a guy like that unless he is at his peak and right now, he's not, in all likelihood.. So, that idea is awful.

He's pretty darn close. And you'd get a haul from him now as you would a year from now. He's been established as the best defensive catcher in MLB and he's still got upside with the bat. He is a much better trade chip than Jones and if you are serious about getting as much talent as you could Wieters should be available.

The prospects you get back would also have an extra year to get established in MLB.

[Sports Guy]

He's pretty darn close. And you'd get a haul from him now as you would a year from now. He's been established as the best defensive catcher in MLB and he's still got upside with the bat. He is a much better trade chip than Jones and if you are serious about getting as much talent as you could Wieters should be available.

The prospects you get back would also have an extra year to get established in MLB.

If he continues to progress offensively and continue to stay great defensively, his value will be much higher even if he is a year closer to free agency.

On top of that, I would still look to extend him if he is willing to sign a team friendly extension.

Either way, saying Wieters has to go if you deal Jones is incredibly wrong and way off base.

[EddieMurrayfan]

At some point you just have to make the ML team better for NOW.

We've been floundering for 14 years and all this trade this guy for these prospects at his most valuable time for the best haul, blah, blah, blah is enough. It all sounds good and reasonable but 5 years from now the same stuff will be posted becasue this GM and the next one just didnt do it right.

Prospects are prospects and you dont really know what you are getting. Even if they make the ML club you guys wont be happy. Look at Weiters, he is never good enuff. All this season posts were made about him not living up to expectations. AJ is never good enuff in CF. Nick needs to go, etc.

Yet everybody seems to love Guthrie for some reason. Yeah, the guy who always finds a way to lose rather than finding a way to win.

Prospects are all good and well. Talent evaluation and development is all good and well. Planning for the future by building a foundation is all good and well. BUTT, you still need a decent ML team on the field. A respectable team.

You need to be strong in all areas obviously. At least with some FA's you know what you are getting. And you get to make some much needed improvement now, while still building for the future.

[Lucky Jim]

At some point you just have to make the ML team better for NOW.

We've been floundering for 14 years and all this trade this guy for these prospects at his most valuable time for the best haul, blah, blah, blah is enough. It all sounds good and reasonable but 5 years from now the same stuff will be posted becasue this GM and the next one just didnt do it right.

Prospects are prospects and you dont really know what you are getting. Even if they make the ML club you guys wont be happy. Look at Weiters, he is never good enuff. All this season posts were made about him not living up to expectations. AJ is never good enuff in CF. Nick needs to go, etc.

Yet everybody seems to love Guthrie for some reason. Yeah, the guy who always finds a way to lose rather than finding a way to win.

Prospects are all good and well. Talent evaluation and development is all good and well. Planning for the future by building a foundation is all good and well. BUTT, you still need a decent ML team on the field. A respectable team.

You need to be strong in all areas obviously. At least with some FA's you know what you are getting. And you get to make some much needed improvement now, while still building for the future.

I think you've managed to type an entire 250 words or so, none of which are true. Kudos.

[Frobby]

If he continues to progress offensively and continue to stay great defensively, his value will be much higher even if he is a year closer to free agency.

On top of that, I would still look to extend him if he is willing to sign a team friendly extension.

Either way, saying Wieters has to go if you deal Jones is incredibly wrong and way off base.

Agreed on all fronts. Nobody is untouchable, Wieters included, but the haul would have to be otherworldly in order to justify trading him now. Jones is a slightly above average starting CF, much easier to give up for the right package.

[Austin]

At some point you just have to make the ML team better for NOW.

What's the point of making the team better for NOW if better only means 80 wins instead of 70. We still won't make the playoffs and we'll have massive, albatross contracts to boot.

Prospects are prospects and you dont really know what you are getting. Even if they make the ML club you guys wont be happy. Look at Weiters, he is never good enuff. All this season posts were made about him not living up to expectations. AJ is never good enuff in CF. Nick needs to go, etc.

I'm not even really sure what this means. Every star was a prospect at some point. The Indians traded Bartolo Colon for prospects and they turned into Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, and Cliff Lee.

Yet everybody seems to love Guthrie for some reason. Yeah, the guy who always finds a way to lose rather than finding a way to win.

Terrible baseball cliche, and what does this have to do with the conversation? Plenty of us have advocated for trading Guthrie, by the way.

Prospects are all good and well. Talent evaluation and development is all good and well. Planning for the future by building a foundation is all good and well. BUTT, you still need a decent ML team on the field. A respectable team.

What's respectable to you? 80-85 wins with a $120 million payroll? That's not going to cut it in the AL East.

You need to be strong in all areas obviously. At least with some FA's you know what you are getting. And you get to make some much needed improvement now, while still building for the future.

How do we build for the future without trading for prospects? By investing more internationally, by focusing on drafting and development. And honestly, if you can move a guy like Jones or Guthrie or whoever for a good haul of prospects, you have to do it. That's what we want and that isn't the status quo.

[mikegallo]

His foundation, in some areas, hasn't turned out. So, you keep a lot of it but I don't consider Johnson or Guthrie to be part of a true championship core. Jones could be but he fetches you the most talent, is close to free agency and would require too much to extend, so he needs to go.

You spend more than what we have been spending and get a lot more international talent.

Half of it is realistic...Whether the ML aspect of things is realistic remains to be seen but I tend to think not.

If the Orioles aren't going to be smart and do things the way they should, sure, go out and spend money on these guys. At least do something to get closer to contending than doing what they are doing now.

I agree with all these points and I think me and you are pretty much at the same point as it relates to where we should take this team and how to do it....But as you said if the orioles arent gonna be smart and do it right (have they ever?) then go out and try to get better spend spend spend on good talent.

I just am so down on how this team has gone about its business that I am at the point where IDC how we get more talent just go get it Prince E JAck whoever just improve and if we get one or two breaks maybe we got a shot these next couple years.

Does anyone really think we are gonna do this thing the right way (build from the ground up to sustain sucess ie Rays model)...No it's not gonna happen in this life so open up the wallet spend on big time talent these next two years and if that leads to winning than our revenue from the Os and Masn will make it possible for us to sustain a big payroll and make us relevant again...I know it is a long shot but what else we gonna do stick it out with the core make marginal upgrades and pray because that seems to be our mantra....

Idk we all know what needs to be done but does this front office have the will and permission to do it, doesn't seem so.

[JTrea81]

If he continues to progress offensively and continue to stay great defensively, his value will be much higher even if he is a year closer to free agency.

On top of that, I would still look to extend him if he is willing to sign a team friendly extension.

Either way, saying Wieters has to go if you deal Jones is incredibly wrong and way off base.

You said the Orioles never did a true rebuild right? Markakis was likely more valuable than Bedard yet they hung onto him and traded Bedard. Shouldn't the Orioles have traded Markakis as well now that we know they weren't going to compete before he was going to hit FA?

[weams]

Since we are oversimplifying things and painting people with broad strokes, I think the groups you are talking about break down more like this:

Group 1 - Delusional fans arguing that the team should spend a ton of money on free agency and carry a payroll far beyond what the team has ever done before. Then pretending it is realistic that Peter Angelos would even consider it.

Group 2 - Fans who realize that the Orioles are probably going to remain in the payroll range they have been in for the past decade and attempting to build an organization and team that can win while staying within those financial constraints.

I enjoy being painted with broad strokes. For me, it's slimmimg.