Orioles Want Pie Added

[redwhitenblue]

That might be because we have no better alternative lol. It comes down to go with Theriot with bad range but money if he gets in front or go with Cedeno who has sick range, but often makes bad throws and shows his youth. Lee can pick-um but he's not 12 feet wide and 12 feet tall.

You do remember Cedeno didn't have Derrek Lee most of '06 to pick his throws, you have no idea how many errors Lee could've saved

[redwhitenblue]

Agree 100%. Roberts is wayyyy more of a sure thing than pie. Additionally, regardless of the ultimate outcome, Roberts will surely contribute more to a contending team over the next two years than pie would.

That's not my concern in this discussion

We're not talking Pie for Roberts straight up (and even so, as I said, you have to take into consideration the piss-poor position the Cubs would be in CF then)

[Jimbo81]

All right everyone I have it all figured out. Everyone will love this

Bedard + someone* maybe

Jones

Clement

Tillman

Chen

Roberts + someone* or No body else

Murton

Gallagher

Cedeno

*Payton, Mora, Huff, Millar

Just hold out on Gibbs

Line up

C Hernandez

1B Clement/Millar

2B Chen

SS Cedeno

3B Moore/Mora

OF Scott/Murton

OF Jones

OF Markakis

DH Huff

Bench

Quiroz

Murton

Millar

Bynum

SP

Guts

Loewen

DCab

Patton

Gallagher

BP

Burres

Bierd

Cherry\FCab

Liz

Bradford

Walker

Hoey

Eh its just a thought.

[blueberryale77]

One big clue...don't use your memory to judge players

Murton's first year in RF (first year ever in RF) was barely below average, in LF he's actually an above average fielder

Rate2 of 110 in LF, 94 in RF (again, first time he's ever played RF)

I have never heard anyone try to argue that Matt Murton is above average defensively before. You can find a statistic to say anything, particularly when it comes to defense, but the universal opinion of scouts and the vast majority of fans is that he's not a very good outfielder. He's not fast, his arm is weak, and he doesn't have very good instincts either. Even if he had a year where he was a tiny bit above average for an LF (in limited playing time), that's not saying much. It's the weakest defensive position there is where everybody stashes their mashers who can't field, especially in the NL where you can't play them at DH. Average or even slightly above defense in left field that doesn't even translate to right is of no real value.

[redwhitenblue]

All right everyone I have it all figured out. Everyone will love this

Bedard + someone* maybe

Jones

Clement

Tillman

Chen

Roberts + someone* or No body else

Murton

Gallagher

Cedeno

*Payton, Mora, Huff, Millar

Just hold out on Gibbs

Line up

C Hernandez

1B Clement/Millar

2B Chen

SS Cedeno

3B Moore/Mora

OF Scott/Murton

OF Jones

OF Markakis

DH Huff

Bench

Quiroz

Murton

Millar

Bynum

SP

Guts

Loewen

DCab

Patton

Gallagher

BP

Burres

Bierd

Cherry\FCab

Liz

Bradford

Walker

Hoey

Eh its just a thought.

I like the Cubs trade, but that would never happen

[blueberryale77]

You do remember Cedeno didn't have Derrek Lee most of '06 to pick his throws, you have no idea how many errors Lee could've saved

Well the Orioles have aging, overweight Kevin Millar at 1B so imagine how many extra errors he could make if he played here.

[redwhitenblue]

I have never heard anyone try to argue that Matt Murton is above average defensively before. You can find a statistic to say anything, particularly when it comes to defense, but the universal opinion of scouts and the vast majority of fans is that he's not a very good outfielder. He's not fast, his arm is weak, and he doesn't have very good instincts either. Even if he had a year where he was a tiny bit above average for an LF (in limited playing time), that's not saying much. It's the weakest defensive position there is where everybody stashes their mashers who can't field, especially in the NL where you can't play them at DH. Average or even slightly above defense in left field that doesn't even translate to right is of no real value.

Rate2 is probably the best defensive statistic there is

There is this ridiculous notion among average Cubs fans that Murton is

A) Not fast, he's actually got some good wheels on him, check the scouting reports-he's not a slug at all

B) His arm is probably average in LF-well below in RF though

In his year being above average in LF he played basically full time, 2006

He was barely below average in RF (I'd say mostly due to an atrocious start in April there, he improved a lot in his 2nd stint with the team last year) and with any experience will likely improve to at least average, though his arm will never be good for RF

[Sports Guy]

Since he turned 20 in '05, his OPS is sitting around ~.850 in the minors

His numbers from his age 17 and 18 don't really concern me

EDIT: My mistake on Roberts age

Well, as I said, his first year in the PCL wasn't that great either...at least not in the terms you are putting it.

And now you are going from he has demolished all the minor leagues to eliminating certain years???

So which is it....How about this...Pie has a solid MiLer at each level when you consider age.

However, whether Cubs fans want to admit it or not, he has a lot of issues, mainly plate discipline...He has shown he isn't a great SB guy(% wise)...He k's a lot and some scouts say he is inconsistent on his routes in CF.

He isn't the flawless, can't miss guy you all think he is.

The bottom line is, whether you(or any other Cubs fan) want to admit it or not, that a Pie for BRob trade is extremely fair...It doesn't mean it is a trade the Cubs should do(i don't think they should) but you act as if it is some lopsided trade and that is a joke.

You guys will be pretty lucky if Pie ends up being a 8-10 win player in CF like BRob is at second.

[redwhitenblue]

Well the Orioles have aging, overweight Kevin Millar at 1B so imagine how many extra errors he could make if he played here.

That wasn't my intention-he was strictly talking about measuring a players defense by "Murton being relieved late in games on defense" and said the reason Theriot wasn't was because there was no good replacement, and Cedeno basically makes a ton of errors that even Lee couldn't get

But Cedeno barely played with Lee

[Jimbo81]

I like the Cubs trade, but that would never happen

Why Not?????

[redwhitenblue]

Well, as I said, his first year in the PCL wasn't that great either...at least not in the terms you are putting it.

And now you are going from he has demolished all the minor leagues to eliminating certain years???

So which is it....How about this...Pie has a solid MiLer at each level when you consider age.

However, whether Cubs fans want to admit it or not, he has a lot of issues, mainly plate discipline...He has shown he isn't a great SB guy(% wise)...He k's a lot and some scouts say he is inconsistent on his routes in CF.

He isn't the flawless, can't miss guy you all think he is.

The bottom line is, whether you(or any other Cubs fan) want to admit it or not, that a Pie for BRob trade is extremely fair...It doesn't mean it is a trade the Cubs should do(i don't think they should) but you act as if it is some lopsided trade and that is a joke.

You guys will be pretty lucky if Pie ends up being a 8-10 win player in CF like BRob is at second.

He suffered a broken ankle in 2005, which could very well be part of the reason for the drop in numbers in his first year in the PCL

Also, I'd question you to go back once and find where I said Pie for Roberts wouldn't be fair, I simply said the Cubs wouldn't do it and it would be dumb for them to do because the holes it opens up elsewhere would likely hurt the team more than Roberts would help

[blueberryale77]

Rate2 is probably the best defensive statistic there is

There is this ridiculous notion among average Cubs fans that Murton is

A) Not fast, he's actually got some good wheels on him, check the scouting reports-he's not a slug at all

B) His arm is probably average in LF-well below in RF though

In his year being above average in LF he played basically full time, 2006

He was barely below average in RF (I'd say mostly due to an atrocious start in April there, he improved a lot in his 2nd stint with the team last year) and with any experience will likely improve to at least average, though his arm will never be good for RF

I'm probably willing to give you that it's the best defensive statistic that has been come up with to date, but there is no perfect defensive statistic. They can't completely replace common sense observation and evaluation. I didn't call Murton a "slug" but he's not fast as I said, and an arm that can't play in RF isn't something to brag about. Like I said, maybe he's about average for an LF, heck, maybe even a tiny bit above, but that's certainly not a plus skill.

[blueberryale77]

That wasn't my intention-he was strictly talking about measuring a players defense by "Murton being relieved late in games on defense" and said the reason Theriot wasn't was because there was no good replacement, and Cedeno basically makes a ton of errors that even Lee couldn't get

But Cedeno barely played with Lee

That doesn't matter. A plus defensive shortstop should be able to pretty consistently make throws that the average first baseman can catch without extreme difficulty.

[Sports Guy]

He suffered a broken ankle in 2005, which could very well be part of the reason for the drop in numbers in his first year in the PCL

When did he break his ankle? I see he only had 245 ab's in AA, so I would assume he broke his ankle during the season?? If so, I think it is reach to say it effected him the next year.(not saying it isn't possible)

Also, I'd question you to go back once and find where I said Pie for Roberts wouldn't be fair, I simply said the Cubs wouldn't do it and it would be dumb for them to do because the holes it opens up elsewhere would likely hurt the team more than Roberts would help

Fair enough...Other Cubs fans think it is lopsided...Sorry to include you in that group.

[redwhitenblue]

I'm probably willing to give you that it's the best defensive statistic that has been come up with to date, but there is no perfect defensive statistic. They can't completely replace common sense observation and evaluation. I didn't call Murton a "slug" but he's not fast as I said, and an arm that can't play in RF isn't something to brag about. Like I said, maybe he's about average for an LF, heck, maybe even a tiny bit above, but that's certainly not a plus skill.

I am of opinion that defensive stats SUCK, but when I need to measure D I use Rate2

I think saying Murton isn't fast is a poor observation by some Cubs fans who aren't particularly fond of the redhead, having watched him-he definitley has some wheels-and I'd challenge someone to find a scouting report saying he doesn't have decent speed

Murton could very well be an average fielding RF, but because of his arm he's more likely a good fit in LF-where he can be an asset defensively