Yankee Brian Roberts. (Update: Signs for $2M+)

[mdbdotcom]

Wow. What I read in your post was that his denials were specifically regarding the LA Times article about Grimsley, which turned out to be erroneous. Grimsley did not name Roberts. Further, what you posted said that when the Mitchell Report cam out and the Bigbie hearsay was mentioned, Roberts acknowledged what Bigbie said, and apologized. He was guilty by admission. He was not caught. His denials were truthful, as he knew that there was no way that Grimsley could have said anything about him. As it turned out, it wasn't Grimsley being dishonest, but rather an erroneous report by the LA Times. I have read your post over 3 times, and that is definitely what it says. The story that Roberts denounced was, indeed, false.

I wasn't talking about the false report, I was talking about the fact that the Mitchell Committee invited Roberts to come in for an interview. He declined. He was named in their report as having told Bigbie that he'd used. The report came out on a Thursday. Roberts issued an apology to the Orioles and then issued his admission and apology on the Tuesday after the Mitchell Report came out. Why did he make the admission? Because he was caught.

George Mitchell addressed it in this interview:

MITCHELL: Well, I offered to every player about whom allegations had been received the opportunity to meet with me, at which time I would tell them whatever information I had, show them any documents that we had, and give them an opportunity to respond to them with their lawyers so that they could have a full understanding of what the allegations are.

Almost without exception, all current players declined the invitation, refused to meet or to talk with me. So everyone who is named in the report in that regard knew that I had information, knew that the report was going to be published, and declined the invitation to meet with me.

WALLACE: But, Senator, let's take the case of one player that has gotten some attention, and that's Baltimore Orioles player second baseman Brian Roberts.

All you have on him is that a former teammate and confessed steroid user, a fellow named Larry Bigbie, told your panel — and let's put it up — in 2004, Roberts admitted to him he had injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never suspected Roberts of using steroids.

Now, I know that...

MITCHELL: Right.

WALLACE: ... your report is not a legal proceeding.

MITCHELL: Right.

WALLACE: But isn't that hearsay and pretty slim evidence on which to blacken someone's reputation?

MITCHELL: It is not hearsay. The law is very clear that an admission against interest is not hearsay. It's an exception to the rule that prohibits hearsay evidence. The word has been much bandied about and much misused in the last few days.

[Ommaculate]

No one admits they used steroids until they are caught.

.

And then they usually give a lie excuse just like Roberts did. His excuse was "only did it once". I am not buying it, sounds like Lance Armstrong.

[Number5]

Why you want to go through these mental gymnastics on New Year's Eve to excuse Roberts for lying about performance enhancing drug use is beyond me.

Nevertheless, there are two, and only two, pertinent questions to be answered: (1) did Roberts acknowledge that he used performance enhancing drugs at any point in his career; (2) prior to that point (or points) in time, did Roberts deny that he used, or ever had used, performance enhancing drugs.

If the answers to both of the above questions are "yes," then Roberts is a liar, regardless of whatever tortured arguments you want to make concerning Roberts' responses to "erroneous" newspaper reports.

From what I have read, the answer to #1 is yes and the answer to #2 is no.

[MrOrange82]

Apologies if this has been posted already, but I think it sums everything up fairly well:

Roberts already asked us to believe him, back when he denied ever using performance-enhancing drugs - though, as we'll discuss momentarily, the exact nature and wording of earlier denials is up for debate. At any rate, now we're asked to believe him again. It reminds me of an old boxing quote, from longtime promoter Bob Arum. "Yesterday I was lying," he said. "Today I am telling the truth."

I don't doubt for a second that Roberts' statement is overflowing with contrition and regret. But why are we to believe that Roberts is being honest when he says he stopped after just one shot?

I'm not labeling Roberts a liar. I don't know whether he has done one shot of steroids, one bottle of Flintstones vitamins or a million bowls of Wheaties. But I do know that in any steroid conversation, he has invited skepticism, and the scarce details in last night's confession certainly deserve further scrutiny.

...

"I immediately realized that this was not what I stood for or anything that I wanted to continue doing," [Roberts] said in a news release. "I never used steroids, human growth hormone or any other performance-enhancing drugs prior to or since that single incident."

Is that true? Doesn't it contradict what he has asked us to believe before?

Roberts doesn't remember a reporter asking him specifically whether he'd used steroids, so technically he never actually denied using them. And thus, based on that technicality, he never lied.

I can't speak to the accuracy of that, though I do know that Roberts certainly led reporters and fans alike to believe that he'd never used performance-enhancing drugs. I guess lies can be as fluid as the truth.

"His accusations are ridiculous," Roberts said in September 2006, when the Los Angeles Times reported that former teammate Jason Grimsley had named Roberts as a user. "We've had steroid testing, and I've taken all the tests. There is no point in getting into verbal wars. That's really all there is to say."

Emphasis added.

So I suppose the above invites us to define "lie," which is obviously something that could vary from person to person. If your definition of"lying" includes "misleading others," or "being deceitful," then Roberts is basically a liar. Regardless of the truth of the newspaper report that prompted his statements, he said that he'd "taken all the tests," which, at best, implies that a negative test result would have surfaced through MLB channels, if such a negative result existed. At worst, and more realistically, his statement implies that he's passed all the tests he's been given (i.e., he hasn't used PEDs because...look, I've taken all the tests, and they came up clean).

All that being said, if your definition of lying requires a public finger-wagging or a Clinton-esque, explicit denial of specific events and activities, then Roberts probably isn't a liar.

I personally think the latter is an offshoot of willful blindness, but, ultimately, I think we have to agree to disagree...because some people are clearly going to disagree with me.

[Frobby]

You said "one of the best, if not the best". If you want to make a statement of that sort then I can use stuff like GG/SS/MVPS to show that he was not regarded as "one of the best, if not the best" by those following baseball. You set the standard so high that I don't even have to bother to look up stuff like accumulated WAR to disprove it.

Now as to your points.

MVP- Dude, I set the bar at TOP TWENTY. That isn't a high bar for the best at his position.

All Star- How hard should it be for "one of the best, if not the best" second baseman in the game to get the pity selection the O's received? And yet Roberts only managed it once. (We can all agree he was worthy the other time).

GG- Yet again, "one of the best, if not the best" is going to get rewarded like Palmeiro was, like Jeter was. That isn't the case for Roberts.

In all the awards that reward both performance and perception Roberts has not ever been considered "one of the best, if not the best".

He had a nice little career. If his name ever finds itself on the ballot for the HoF he will drop off after the first year.

Now if you want to do it the other way...lets look at 2004-2009 as Roberts "peak".

2004- 15th in WAR for 2nd

2005- 2nd

2006- 11th

2007- 8th

2008- 6th

2009- 9th

Like I said, a nice career. But if you only crack the top 5 in WAR for your position once over your peak, I don't consider you "one of the best, if not the best".

He had a nice career.

4/40 was an overpay that wouldn't have been matched on the open market.

Roberts was worth 20.0 rWAR, 19.2 fWAR in the four years before he signed his big contract (he signed it before the 2009 season, though the contract was for 2010-13). I think that qualifies him as "one of the best" second basemen in baseball when he signed his deal. Per fangraphs, he was the second-best 2B in MLB in those years (behind Utley) and was worth $74.9 mm over those four years. Whether he was worth 4/$40 mm for his age 32-35 seasons at the time is debatable, but if it was an overpay, it wasn't a huge one at the time. The big issue of discussion here wasn't whether he was worth $10 mm/yr right then, but whether he'd still be that good in the last couple years of his deal. Obviously, nobody foresaw that he'd miss as many games as he did and have such serious injury problems, but there definitely were posters who argued that 2B was a position where players tended to get hurt and that Roberts' speed-based skills would decline at ages 32-35.

[Frobby]

I didn't start the Roberts talk. Why do you feel the need to defend Roberts? Guys don't just use steroids once. Everyone who is caught doing anything illegal says they only did it once. A Rod claims he wasn't using steroids. The guy from the Brewers denied until he was caught a second time. Who really cares anyway? His 4 years of non performance is a good measure of his abilities off steroids. He will feel right at home with the Yankees.

Except that Roberts was excellent in 2008 and 2009, which is after he admitted to using steroids. Even if you choose to believe that Roberts was lying when he said, in 2007, that he used steroids only once and it was in 2003, you're pretty hard pressed to suggest that (1) he continued taking steroids in 2008-09 after making that admission and despite the stricter drug testing then in place, and (2) that his performance in 2010-13 somehow relates to being off steroids. To believe that, you'd have to conclude that Roberts continued using steroids (1) after 2003, when he has said he used one time, (2) after 2005, when Palmeiro was caught and stricter testing was instituted, (3) after 2006, when it was reported (apparently incorrectly) that Grimsley's affidavit named Roberts as a user, and (4) after 2007, when he admitted to his (allegedly) one-time use in 2003, but that he suddenly stopped using steroids before the 2010 season and that caused his performance to decline. That narrative makes no sense whatsoever.

[Dannyboy]

I didn't start the Roberts talk. Why do you feel the need to defend Roberts? Guys don't just use steroids once. Everyone who is caught doing anything illegal says they only did it once. A Rod claims he wasn't using steroids. The guy from the Brewers denied until he was caught a second time. Who really cares anyway? His 4 years of non performance is a good measure of his abilities off steroids. He will feel right at home with the Yankees.

Or..it could be the back trouble, the torn hip labrum, ruptured tendon behind his right knee, the concussion, or the post concussion syndrome....but why let facts get in the way of your bogus assumptions.

[weams]

# Infielders B/T Ht Wt DOB

Dean Anna L-R 5'11" 180 Nov 24, 1986

2 Derek Jeter R-R 6'3" 195 Jun 26, 1974

Kelly Johnson L-R 6'1" 200 Feb 22, 1982

26 Eduardo Nunez R-R 6'0" 185 Jun 15, 1987

13 Alex Rodriguez R-R 6'3" 225 Jul 27, 1975

35 Brendan Ryan R-R 6'2" 195 Mar 26, 1982

25 Mark Teixeira S-R 6'3" 215 Apr 11, 1980

[mdbdotcom]

# Infielders B/T Ht Wt DOB

Dean Anna L-R 5'11" 180 Nov 24, 1986

2 Derek Jeter R-R 6'3" 195 Jun 26, 1974

Kelly Johnson L-R 6'1" 200 Feb 22, 1982

26 Eduardo Nunez R-R 6'0" 185 Jun 15, 1987

13 Alex Rodriguez R-R 6'3" 225 Jul 27, 1975

35 Brendan Ryan R-R 6'2" 195 Mar 26, 1982

25 Mark Teixeira S-R 6'3" 215 Apr 11, 1980

Their 40-man roster is full, and he's not on it. Also, the signing is not listed on their Transactions page. Either he signed a minor league deal or there has been no signing yet.

[mdbdotcom]

Their 40-man roster is full, and he's not on it. Also, the signing is not listed on their Transactions page. Either he signed a minor league deal or there has been no signing yet.

He doesn't show up on any of their AAA or AA rosters, either.

[Redskins Rick]

He doesn't show up on any of their AAA or AA rosters, either.

He showed up here:

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/new-york-yankees

• 1 year/$2M (2014)
  • signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 12/19/13
  • may earn additional $2.6M in performance bonuses based on plate appearances

/

[Ohfan67]

Not that it matters, but I believe that Roberts used steroids more than one time. His performance in 2005, especially that first half of the year, was pretty suspicious. That said, he was my favorite Oriole for a number of years and I think he was a very good Oriole. He was good to fans, was a good face of the Orioles, and I think he played very hard. He always seemed to come to spring training in shape and ready to play, never bad mouthed the organization, etc. I hope the Yankees suck, suck, suck in 2014, but I hope Roberts has a great year. And then does the ceremonial one day contract with the O's and retires an Oriole. But more than likely Roberts will have a "creaky" final year or two and then retire. Regardless, I wish Roberts the best. He catches an incredible amount of flack for getting hurt and that has obviously sullied his reputation for many O's fans. But to me he was the best Oriole and a real bright spot during a very horrible period. I will always root for him (but never for the MFY's).

[weams]

He showed up here:

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/new-york-yankees

• 1 year/$2M (2014)
  • signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 12/19/13
  • may earn additional $2.6M in performance bonuses based on plate appearances

/

Unfortunately, that is not an official place. It had Balfour as an Oriole there at one point. I do, however, believe it will show up exactly like that in a day or two.

[mdbdotcom]

He showed up here:

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/new-york-yankees

• 1 year/$2M (2014)
  • signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 12/19/13
  • may earn additional $2.6M in performance bonuses based on plate appearances

/

Perhaps someone needs to update the roster and transactions on the Yankees official MLB website and their roster on ESPN (he's not there, either). Maybe it got missed in the holidays.

[Frobby]

Unfortunately, that is not an official place. It had Balfour as an Oriole there at one point. I do, however, believe it will show up exactly like that in a day or two.

The fact that neither Roberts nor anyone in the Yankee organization has been quoted regarding the deal suggests that maybe it's not official yet.