Crawford Talks

[Blue Fielder]

If you don't want to trade them your top three young pitchers/pitching prospects you should not even enter into a discussion about Crawford.

I have to go....my eyes and ears are starting to bleed profusely.

Oh, and if someone actually did say Huff from the Rays they are about 6 months behind times so I wouldn't pay the individual anymore attention.

[El Gordo]

I think this is where i would stop short...I can't see trading Ray and one of those 2.

You wouldn't trade Loewen and Ray for Howard, Beltran or Berkman?

[ejf1025]

Crawford is a helluva player and I'd love to have him. However, it would be tough to trade Ray AND one of Cabrera or Loewen for him. Pitching is so valuable. I would probably pull the trigger though. FWIW, I would also trade Loewen before Cabrera and I'm a big Loewen fan.

Two reasons - Loewen's shoulder tear and Cabrera's ceiling

Cabrera is unlikely to reach his ceiling, but it is so freaking high that I would hate to be the guy that traded him.

Loewen's shoulder is probably fine but you never know when that injury will rear its ugly head.

That's it in a nutshell.

In all probability Cabrera will never reach his ceiling, and Loewen may very well be the better pitcher in the end.

But, if Cabrera does reach his ceiling, holy crap. I just can't be the guy who gave up on him unless I'm literally getting back...I don't even know.

I mean, Cabrera has the type of stuff that comes around once every 20 years for an organization.

[section18]

I have had several Crawford threads previously and I think he would be great in left field for the Orioles for years to come. He would really set up our offense if he bats first or second in our lineup.

The game changes when you have speed in the lineup and if the speed guys we would have (Roberts, Patterson and Crawford) are alternated or spread out in the lineup they would change the way pitchers pitch to our other hitters. With these three on base at any given time in the game the hitters coming up will not see changeups or curve balls. Pitchers always throw fastballs with speed runners on base and they throw to first or second a lot while the runners are on to try to hold them. This is really distracting to a pitcher. Crawford had 16 triples last year and 58 steals while Patterson had 5 triples and 45 steals and Roberts had 3 triples and 36 steals. As they say, he has track star speed which is exciting to watch and he is only 25 years old.

If we have to add Loewen into the deal with Ray and Gibbons I would try to get one of Tampa's AAA prospects added. If they say Crawford for all three I would still do it. His contract fits our budget. I think our three players salaries would total almost what Crawfords is in 2007 which means we would have about a $70 million dollar payroll so far for next year. I think I read the Orioles are expecting to increase their payroll to about $85-$95 million for 2007. If we trade Loewen we should sign Lilly or Meche. If anyone has heard how much our payroll is going to be allowed to increase please let me know.

[RustyMcNail]

The fact that Fiorentino is a throw in on this prospective deal makes me suspect that this rumour was started by an O's fan. Why would the Drays want Fiorentino???

If i could get Crawford for Ray, Penn and Gibbons I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I had to give up Loewen instead of Penn, I'd do it, but I wouldn't be as happy. I might even substitute Cabrera but I would package him only with Gibbons, and pull Ray and Penn/Loewen back.

You gotta get a guy like Crawford it you get a chance.

[El Gordo]

I have had several Crawford threads previously and I think he would be great in left field for the Orioles for years to come. He would really set up our offense if he bats first or second in our lineup.

The game changes when you have speed in the lineup and if the speed guys we would have (Roberts, Patterson and Crawford) are alternated or spread out in the lineup they would change the way pitchers pitch to our other hitters. With these three on base at any given time in the game the hitters coming up will not see changeups or curve balls. Pitchers always throw fastballs with speed runners on base and they throw to first or second a lot while the runners are on to try to hold them. This is really distracting to a pitcher. Crawford had 16 triples last year and 58 steals while Patterson had 5 triples and 45 steals and Roberts had 3 triples and 36 steals. As they say, he has track star speed which is exciting to watch and he is only 25 years old.

If we have to add Loewen into the deal with Ray and Gibbons I would try to get one of Tampa's AAA prospects added. If they say Crawford for all three I would still do it. His contract fits our budget. I think our three players salaries would total almost what Crawfords is in 2007 which means we would have about a $70 million dollar payroll so far for next year. I think I read the Orioles are expecting to increase their payroll to about $85-$95 million for 2007. If we trade Loewen we should sign Lilly or Meche. If anyone has heard how much our payroll is going to be allowed to increase please let me know.

I've said the same thing. If we are serious about getting the bat we need we have to be willing to give up on of the big three. That means spending what is necessary to replace them in the rotation.

[camdenyards8]

i apologize to blue fielder for fogetting that huff was traded to houston mid-season. as for everyone else who got the point without complaining about what frickin team he's on, thanks. i'm sorry i made a mistake and am not as perfect as blue fielder

[Baltimoron]

You are absolutely crazy. Every one of the players I listed was better (the youngish ones) to way better (the older ones) than Crawford last year.

Those are the only guys i would definitely take over Crawford...Sizemore and Crawford are interchangeable for me.

I'll address this ridiculous notion.

Sizemore is a full year younger and already a *FAR* better player than Crawford.

Grady was easily one of the ten best players in the AL last year.

In 06:

Crawford at 25 .305/.348/.482

Sizemore at 24 .290/.375/.533

In 05:

Crawford at 24 .301 /.331 /.469

Sizemore at 23 .289 /.348 /.484

They are both amongst the best defenders in baseball at their postions, but Crawford plays an easier one (LF) and Sizemore (CF).

[Baltimoron]

The game changes when you have speed in the lineup and if the speed guys we would have (Roberts, Patterson and Crawford) are alternated or spread out in the lineup they would change the way pitchers pitch to our other hitters. With these three on base at any given time in the game the hitters coming up will not see changeups or curve balls. Pitchers always throw fastballs with speed runners on base and they throw to first or second a lot while the runners are on to try to hold them. This is really distracting to a pitcher. Crawford had 16 triples last year and 58 steals while Patterson had 5 triples and 45 steals and Roberts had 3 triples and 36 steals. As they say, he has track star speed which is exciting to watch and he is only 25 years old.

Speed has an effect but you greatly overstate this effect. The bolded comments are mad exaggerations.

[Mackus]

You are absolutely crazy. Every one of the players I listed was better (the youngish ones) to way better (the older ones) than Crawford last year.

I'll address this ridiculous notion.

Sizemore is a full year younger and already a *FAR* better player than Crawford.

Grady was easily one of the ten best players in the AL last year.

In 06:

Crawford at 25 .305/.348/.482

Sizemore at 24 .290/.375/.533

In 05:

Crawford at 24 .301 /.331 /.469

Sizemore at 23 .289 /.348 /.484

They are both amongst the best defenders in baseball at their postions, but Crawford plays an easier one (LF) and Sizemore (CF).

Man, my love for Grady Sizemore is beautiful and true.

I just hope Markakis can become something even close to as good as Sizemore. He doesn't have the speed that Sizemore does, but the bats can be similar. I hope at least.

[Lucky Jim]

So, basically according to you, there is no comparison between RJ and DC. So why was RJ even brought up in the first place? I'm not forclosing comparisons between RJ and DC, because I wasn't the one who brought his name into the discussion.

Your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired. Simply because I said we shouldn't compare D-Cab at 24 or 25 to RJ at 28 doesn't mean there's no correlation. My point was exactly that RJ provides some indication of where D-Cab could end up at the same age. If I'm trying to project for D-Cab it does little good to use the numbers of a more mature RJ to indict Cabrera for present inadequacies (especially when an immature RJ shared them with D-Cab.)

There IS a comparison between RJ and D-Cab - at similar ages - because they suffered from nearly identical command issues and may (may) follow the same trajectory. Power pitchers over 6'6 or so are anomalies - they're in a tiny minority of all pitchers - and because pitching is so mechanical (and their mechanics have the potential to get wiggy more easily than others) I think they need to be looked at within the appropriate context.

Nothing in what I posted above insinuates there's no comparison. Your comparison is inappropriate and inaccurate. You don't even seem to understand what I'm illustrating or why it might be valid.

Give me one good reason for using Johnson's 28 year old year as a comparison to D-Cab's 24-25 year old years. Seriously. One reason. If you can do that, I'll concede defeat and go away forever. Promise.

[El Gordo]

Your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired. Simply because I said we shouldn't compare D-Cab at 24 or 25 to RJ at 28 doesn't mean there's no correlation. My point was exactly that RJ provides some indication of where D-Cab could end up at the same age. If I'm trying to project for D-Cab it does little good to use the numbers of a more mature RJ to indict Cabrera for present inadequacies (especially when an immature RJ shared them with D-Cab.)

There IS a comparison between RJ and D-Cab - at similar ages - because they suffered from nearly identical command issues and may (may) follow the same trajectory. Power pitchers over 6'6 or so are anomalies - they're in a tiny minority of all pitchers - and because pitching is so mechanical (and their mechanics have the potential to get wiggy more easily than others) I think they need to be looked at within the appropriate context.

Nothing in what I posted above insinuates there's no comparison. Your comparison is inappropriate and inaccurate. You don't even seem to understand what I'm illustrating or why it might be valid.

Give me one good reason for using Johnson's 28 year old year as a comparison to D-Cab's 24-25 year old years. Seriously. One reason. If you can do that, I'll concede defeat and go away forever. Promise.

Please don't go away for ever LuckyJim, I enjoy your posts.

[Elon Os Fan]

Loewen, Ray and Gibbons for Crawford and Elijah Dukes

Offer it NOW!!

[IronBirdsFan8]

Your reading comprehension skills leave something to be desired. Simply because I said we shouldn't compare D-Cab at 24 or 25 to RJ at 28 doesn't mean there's no correlation. My point was exactly that RJ provides some indication of where D-Cab could end up at the same age. If I'm trying to project for D-Cab it does little good to use the numbers of a more mature RJ to indict Cabrera for present inadequacies (especially when an immature RJ shared them with D-Cab.)

There IS a comparison between RJ and D-Cab - at similar ages - because they suffered from nearly identical command issues and may (may) follow the same trajectory. Power pitchers over 6'6 or so are anomalies - they're in a tiny minority of all pitchers - and because pitching is so mechanical (and their mechanics have the potential to get wiggy more easily than others) I think they need to be looked at within the appropriate context.

Nothing in what I posted above insinuates there's no comparison. Your comparison is inappropriate and inaccurate. You don't even seem to understand what I'm illustrating or why it might be valid.

Give me one good reason for using Johnson's 28 year old year as a comparison to D-Cab's 24-25 year old years. Seriously. One reason. If you can do that, I'll concede defeat and go away forever. Promise.

The reason was because you mentioned the amount of walks he had in 93, and I simply pointed out what he did in his career leading up to that. I never once made a comparison between RJ and DC. You brought his name up in response to one of my posts, and I simply responded. I guess when you feel threatened you have to resort to personal shots. Well, since I never made the comparison between RJ and DC, and that was all in your head, I guess unfortunately that there won't be a good enough reason for you, as if any reason would have been good enough anyhow.

[Lucky Jim]

Fair enough. I was probably being testy. That said, my point was that "make-up" is something that's unfalsifiable - there's nothing to say whether it's there or not there, able to be developed or not.

Right now, Cabrera has command issues, and those seem to be a constant. I merely pointed out that, if we keep Cabrera we should be patient - that it may take time to develop into the pitcher he could be. And that RJ is a decent metric for the kind of (slow) improvement that could occur.

This protracted "learning" curve is something we need to be aware of - if we're not going to be patient, then better to let him go now.

My point about RJ in 1993 was only that it was the year before he started showing command - one might have said "he doesn't have it." And then the next year, suddenly, he did...

It may be an over-rated comparison (I don't know), but it's a valid one, I think.