The This Team IS Done, We are Dumb and Nothing can Fix it MEGA THREAD

[Redskins Rick]

Baseball writers don't award Gold Gloves.

That is true now, but was it always that way?

[MurphDogg]

That is true now, but was it always that way?

Indeed it was. It was always managers and coaches (one ballot per team, can't vote for your own players), since 2013 there has been a sabermetric component that accounts for 25 percent of the vote.

[Redskins Rick]

Indeed it was. It was always managers and coaches (one ballot per team, can't vote for your own players), since 2013 there has been a sabermetric component that accounts for 25 percent of the vote.

Thats for the correction.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Sorry, but Jeter won a bunch of GG, because of popularity, and he really sucked at playing the position.

Yeah, because the GG has always gone to deserving individuals. Man, Palmeiro was amazing at 1B for like those 300 innings.

You can always point to an exception. Winning a gold glove or gloves is not an infallible indicator of a player's defensive greatness, it certainly is awarded to the wrong folks sometimes. However, I would argue that the set of players who have won at least one gold glove has far superior average defense to the set of players that has not won a gold glove. If someone has won a gold glove, I think it may take a bit more discussion and evidence to support a claim that they are a bad defender. That is easy to do for Jeter and Palmeiro. I doubt that it's quite so easy with Nick.

[DrungoHazewood]

When someone says that a Gold Glove winner "wasn't that great of a defender", they lose all credibility.

Ha! Do you really want someone to do a comprehensive list of all the GG winners who weren't that great of a defender? Every single year, almost without exception, you can find one or more GG winners who, after careful analysis, appear to be below-average defenders. One of Derek Jeter's nicknames was Derek "past a diving" Jeter, and he won, what, like six GGs?

[DrungoHazewood]

However, I would argue that the set of players who have won at least one gold glove has far superior average defense to the set of players that has not won a gold glove.

Yes, I'm sure that's true. It would be fairly amazing if a compilation of casual observers were wrong most of the time. So, sure, it's probably true that a team of nine GG winners would be better defenders than a team of nine randomly selected MLB players. That's about as far as I'd go in trusting GGs.

[Redskins Rick]

Ha! Do you really want someone to do a comprehensive list of all the GG winners who weren't that great of a defender? Every single year, almost without exception, you can find one or more GG winners who, after careful analysis, appear to be below-average defenders. One of Derek Jeter's nicknames was Derek "past a diving" Jeter, and he won, what, like six GGs?

I wonder if Jeter won a gold glove, the year, his uzi was the worse SS in MLB.

[DrungoHazewood]

Then there was the year Raffy won despite spending 28 games at first base.

And the year ('69) Jim Kaat won despite making errors on 8 of 46 total chances in 40 games, fielding .826. There's probably never been another GGer with an error to putout ratio of 8:9.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Yes, I'm sure that's true. It would be fairly amazing if a compilation of casual observers were wrong most of the time. So, sure, it's probably true that a team of nine GG winners would be better defenders than a team of nine randomly selected MLB players. That's about as far as I'd go in trusting GGs.

A fair point, I just feel uncomfortable with the logic of "well Jeter and Palmeiro were undeserving, so that means GG selection sucks." These are the most repeatedly cited exceptions, as they are likely the most extreme (Palmeiro's definitely is), but it just seems a bit of a leap to use that as a reason Nick is a poor fielder.

[DrungoHazewood]

A fair point, I just feel uncomfortable with the logic of "well Jeter and Palmeiro were undeserving, so that means GG selection sucks." These are the most repeatedly cited exceptions, as they are likely the most extreme (Palmeiro's definitely is), but it just seems a bit of a leap to use that as a reason Nick is a poor fielder.

Of course it's silly to say Nick won a GG, therefore is a bad fielder. Even if the fail rate on GGs is probably 20% (fail meaning player who won isn't in the top ~half dozen players at his position in the league).

[weams]

A fair point, I just feel uncomfortable with the logic of "well Jeter and Palmeiro were undeserving, so that means GG selection sucks." These are the most repeatedly cited exceptions, as they are likely the most extreme (Palmeiro's definitely is), but it just seems a bit of a leap to use that as a reason Nick is a poor fielder.

In addition to Jetes and B12...

7. Russell Martin

Many times, voters think about who is the best hitter at their position, and vote for them as the best defensive player. This makes absolute, complete, total sense. Martin was unquestionably the best hitter at his position in 2007, but he’s not so much the defender. There are plenty of other catchers in the National League that would have been better selections, including one in particular that is going to be mentioned two more times on this list, so we won’t make it three. This same phenomenon occurred this year with Adrian Gonzalez (this could be an entire entry but I’ll save the Pujols love this week and just say that he was robbed) and Nate McLouth, and it has happened plenty of times before.

6. Brad Ausmus

Many times for a player, it’s reputation alone. That’s how Greg Maddux has won 18 Gold Gloves in his career. The thought process is this--“Who was a good fielding pitcher this season? Eh, I don’t feel like thinking about it, I’m sure Maddux was fine.” Ditto Andruw Jones. That’s also how Ausmus won the Glove in 2006 even though he only threw out 12 of 72 baserunners during the season, while Yadier Molina was playing some of the most insane catching defense in baseball history. You could almost put Mike Matheny’s 2005 award into this category too.

5. Yadier Molina

It works the other way too. Sometimes people are late to the party. Yadi did deserve it this year, but he makes the list because it’s beyond ridiculous that it took him this long to get the award. He lost out to Martin because of his hitting and Ausmus because of his reputation. The funniest part is that this was probably Molina’s least awesome defensive season, but he hit a career high .304. Now that he has established himself as worthy of the award, he will probably continue to win them even when he doesn’t deserve it.

4. Chuck Knoblauch

Yes, he actually won the 1997 Gold Glove…the same guy who would hurl the ball 65 feet over the first baseman’s head, occasionally into Keith Olbermann’s mother. Fine, he may have deserved it prior to becoming Smalls from Sandlot before receiving the Jet’s help, but in such extreme cases, perhaps awards should be taken away.

2. Aaron Rowand

Sometimes a guy makes an amazing play during the season, and it wins him the Gold Glove. He could basically Chuck Knoblauch his way through the rest of the year and it wouldn’t matter. For Rowand, it was the amazing crash-into-the-wall catch that he made in 2007 that clinched the award for him. For the aforementioned Jeter, it was his jump into the stands against the Red Sox that paved the way for an inexplicable three awards.

[weams]

CA Sandy Alomar Jr. (AL 1990) 14 errors, 5.67 range factor;

2B Fernando Vina (NL 2002) 13 errors, 4.59 range factor;

3B Travis Fryman (AL 2000) 2.31 range factor;

SS Robin Yount (AL 1982) 24 errors, 4.82 range factor;

LF Dusty Baker (NL 1981) range factor 1.87, league range factor 2.02;

CF Andy Van Slyke (NL 1990) 8 errors -- fairly horrible for a CF;

OF Andre Dawson (NL 1988) range factor 1.86, lg range factor 1.98;

[DrungoHazewood]

C'mon weams! Range factor and errors? What is this, 1958?

CA Sandy Alomar Jr. (AL 1990) 14 errors, 5.67 range factor;

2B Fernando Vina (NL 2002) 13 errors, 4.59 range factor;

3B Travis Fryman (AL 2000) 2.31 range factor;

SS Robin Yount (AL 1982) 24 errors, 4.82 range factor;

LF Dusty Baker (NL 1981) range factor 1.87, league range factor 2.02;

CF Andy Van Slyke (NL 1990) 8 errors -- fairly horrible for a CF;

OF Andre Dawson (NL 1988) range factor 1.86, lg range factor 1.98;

By Total Zone, mostly retroactively figured:

Alomar: -3

Vina: +2

Fryman: +0

Yount: +8 (Cal was at +3 in 94 games at short, another +3 at third)

Baker: -2

Van Slyke: -3

Dawson: +2

So, mainly a bunch of average-ish guys who were probably in the #8-15 range among regulars (since 10ish teams generally don't have a real regular at a given position.) For gold gloves I my rule of thumb was as long as they didn't pick someone who was awful they're doing okay.

In 2004 Jeter won a GG with a -13 UZR/150, 23rd of 25 shortstops with 900+ innings. Or almost 40 runs worse than Orlando Cabrera. That's like giving a silver slugger to a first baseman who hit .255 with 11 homers and a .730 OPS.

[weams]

Errors!!!

[slakattack]

This is the only safe thread for this post: I have attended 2 games so far this year, Opening Day and tonight's 2-10 drubbing. Both games were lost to the Blue Jays and featured a lot of very poor baseball. I have spent hundreds of dollars in tickets, parking and concessions thus far this year and I have come to the conclusion that The Baltimore Orioles Baseball Club is offering a very poor product for their asking price at this time. So, I will continue to watch them on TV, listen on the radio and follow them online, but I will not put out significant piles of cash to witness more of what I saw tonight. Hell, I'll wait for the Ironbird's season to start if I need some live BB. Sorry, this really disappointed me tonight.