Things I Hate to See

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't want to give Jones, Machado or Schoop a three year deal when they will be entering their age 33 season.

I'm not concerned about age of pitchers nearly to the extent I am position players. Effectiveness is a better gauge of how long a pitcher will last than age. But having said that I have a hard time giving any 65-inning reliever a multi-year deal at $8M or $10M per.

[MeSoHardy]

Completely disagree, at least in the future. If the O's are going to compete in 2016 and beyond they need low cost value, they need Schoop to become a 3, 4, or more win player at $500k. O'Day is a 65 inning reliever who will be making $6-10M a year. Schoop just might be worth as much production as 2-3 O'Days while making 5% their salary. I would love to have O'Day back, but it's real hard to justify a 3/30 contract for a reliever.

I was not arguing the future worth of ODay vs. Schoop.

[DrungoHazewood]

I was not arguing the future worth of ODay vs. Schoop.

If you're saying that O'Day is more important than Schoop regarding only the playoff prospects of the 2015 Orioles, I'd say that's much more reasonable than extending that to a discussion of their relative worth in the future. But it's still far from certain that O'Day will be more valuable than Schoop over the next 2.5 months.

[Can_of_corn]

O'Day is absolutely more valuable than Schoop for our playoff aspirations this year. We have someone on the team that can do what Schoop does right now (Flahrety: less HR's but better average and the same level of defense). Nobody on this team has shown they can replicate what O'Day has been doing for the last 3+ seasons, except maybe Britton but he is the closer. I am not arguing that Schoop does not have brighter future with the team, but right now O'Day is just more valuable. And you need guys like O'Day to keep the team in games so that the Adam Jones' and Manny Machado's of the world can win you games.

Flaherty's defense is not at Schoop's level. Have you ever actually Schoop turn the double play?

As for O'Day, I am reasonably sure that the difference between O'Day and Givens over 34 innings is not going to be the difference between making and missing the playoffs.

[Davey]

Earl Weaver modeling underwear.

[SteveO]

O'day is as big a part of this team as anyone else and way more valuable for our playoff aspirations than Schoop

I would not go anywhere near that far. Schoop has the potential to be an impact defender and impact bat on a nightly basis.

O'Day is valuable nobody is disputing that. Enjoy him while you can because he is long long gone after this season IMO. He will get a 3 year deal at rate I believe the Orioles will rightly not want to match. Spending big money on bullpen pieces is not advisable when you have a finite budget such as the Orioles.

[Can_of_corn]

I would not go anywhere near that far. Schoop has the potential to be an impact defender and impact bat on a nightly basis.

O'Day is valuable nobody is disputing that. Enjoy him while you can because he is long long gone after this season IMO. He will get a 3 year deal at rate I believe the Orioles will rightly not want to match. Spending big money on bullpen pieces is not advisable when you have a finite budget such as the Orioles.

The issue with O'Day, and every other bullpen guy, is that they impact so few innings.

Add to that the fact that an average bullpen arm doesn't blow up that often, and that even a very good bullpen arm blows up occasionally and you just don't have someone that is a huge difference maker.

[SteveO]

The issue with O'Day, and every other bullpen guy, is that they impact so few innings.

Add to that the fact that an average bullpen arm doesn't blow up that often, and that even a very good bullpen arm blows up occasionally and you just don't have someone that is a huge difference maker.

Agreed. Its also important to keep in mind where guys like Britton, Miller, O'Day and to a lesser extent someone like Hunter (some success) have come from. If you cast a wide enough net and collect enough arms (as DD has a penchant for) then your likely to hit on enough of them to at a minimum get by. Point is that the O's have a number of arms that could project as potential bullpen arms. If there is a place in our minor league system where I think we have some significant depth in the future its the bullpen type arm guys.

I would go a step farther. If the Orioles could get a good positional prospect for Britton or a package that included Britton, I would not hate that idea. Now this all is based on the notion that Britton is unlikely to sign a "team friendly" extension.

*mean to trade him in the offseason not now*

[MeSoHardy]

Flaherty's defense is not at Schoop's level. Have you ever actually Schoop turn the double play?

As for O'Day, I am reasonably sure that the difference between O'Day and Givens over 34 innings is not going to be the difference between making and missing the playoffs.

Schoop has made more errors in less 'chances' in his career at 2B than Flaherty. So I am not sure where that first statement is coming from. Yes I have seen him turn a double play, he has a better arm. Saying Flaherty is not at his level is not fair.

The difference between O'Day and Givens is about 5,000 miles wider than the difference between Schoop and Flaherty. O'day is in his eighth season having pitched 230.1 innings at a 1.91 ERA with the Orioles in pressure situations.

Givens is a Double AA converted shortstop with potential thats made one MLB appearance........

[Can_of_corn]

Schoop has made more errors in less 'chances' in his career at 2B than Flaherty. So I am not sure where that first statement is coming from. Yes I have seen him turn a double play, he has a better arm. Saying Flaherty is not at his level is not fair.

The difference between O'Day and Givens is about 5,000 miles wider than the difference between Schoop and Flaherty. O'day is in his eighth season having pitched 230.1 innings at a 1.91 ERA with the Orioles in pressure situations.

Givens is a Double AA converted shortstop with potential thats made one MLB appearance........

Oh you want to bring up pressure situations? I normally wouldn't bother with stuff like pressure situations, but since you insist.

O'Day in the playoffs.

2010- 4 ER in 4 2/3 innings.

2012- 0 ER in 7 innings.

2014- 4 ER in 2 2/3 innings.

8 ER in 14.3 innings.

Doesn't seem very shutdown when things count to me.

[Going Underground]

Oh you want to bring up pressure situations? I normally wouldn't bother with stuff like pressure situations, but since you insist.

O'Day in the playoffs.

2010- 4 ER in 4 2/3 innings.

2012- 0 ER in 7 innings.

2014- 4 ER in 2 2/3 innings.

8 ER in 14.3 innings.

Doesn't seem very shutdown when things count to me.

Isn't that one of the reasons the Orioles got Miller in 2014.O'day was not having a great second half.

[SteveO]

Schoop has made more errors in less 'chances' in his career at 2B than Flaherty. So I am not sure where that first statement is coming from. Yes I have seen him turn a double play, he has a better arm. Saying Flaherty is not at his level is not fair.

The difference between O'Day and Givens is about 5,000 miles wider than the difference between Schoop and Flaherty. O'day is in his eighth season having pitched 230.1 innings at a 1.91 ERA with the Orioles in pressure situations.

Givens is a Double AA converted shortstop with potential thats made one MLB appearance........

O'Day is at the peak of his career. Schoop is just scratching the surface of what he could be.

This is not strictly about the difference between O'Day and Givens that is but one example...how about the difference between O'Day and say Chaz Roe whom we essentially pickup off the trash heap and has been pretty effective. When you talk about viable 2nd basemen in this organization, Scoop is clearly in a class by himself. Flaherty is a nice utility guy but his D is a slight notch below Schoop and Schoop's offensive potential far outweighs Flaherty. Its not even close.

[Can_of_corn]

Isn't that one of the reasons the Orioles got Miller in 2014.O'day was not having a great second half.

I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that. Miller was a lefty who was having a shut down year against both left and right handed batters. Plenty of innings for both him and O'Day in the playoffs.

[Can_of_corn]

O'Day is at the peak of his career. Schoop is just scratching the surface of what he could be.

This is not strictly about the difference between O'Day and Givens that is but one example...how about the difference between O'Day and say Chaz Roe whom we essentially pickup off the trash heap and has been pretty effective. When you talk about viable 2nd basemen in this organization, Scoop is clearly in a class by himself. Flaherty is a nice utility guy but his D is a slight notch below Schoop and Schoop's offensive potential far outweighs Flaherty. Its not even close.

I used Givens in my example since he is the most likely replacement on the 40 man roster. I wouldn't expect Buck to slot him into O'Day's role.

As for the crack about him being a converted shortstop? Some of us wanted him in the pen from day one and the actual experts were divided on how he should have been developed.

[SteveO]

Isn't that one of the reasons the Orioles got Miller in 2014.O'day was not having a great second half.

If I recall O'Day had some kind of injury issue in the second half, thought it was one of those things that did not sideline him (?) but seemed to impact him to some degree. He had a few rough outings in the second half.