Gonzo last night....

[Can_of_corn]

Generally when we lose I agree with this a little more often than not. But in terms of last night's game I'll respectfully disagree. MG wasn't very good but I wouldn't call his work "the primary cause of the defeat".

The bullpen didn't give up any runs.

The offense scored two runs.

Do you think that if the O's had made it a bullpen game they would have had a greater, lesser, or same chance of winning?

[OFFNY]

I believe that last night's loss was a team/group effort.

Gonzalez did his part by allowing 3 runs in only 4.33 innings (and having thrown 92 pitches with a lousy 54-38 strikes-to-balls ratio in the process), and the offense did their part by scoring only 2 runs.

The bullpen and the defense were the only strong components in last night's game for the Orioles.

The critique of the offense is appropriate, but any subsequent defense by association of Gonzalez is not.

If Gonzalez had pitched a solid 7-innings/3-run outing, or even a serviceable 6-innings/3-run outing, then the point/critique would be well taken.

He didn't.

He gave up 3 runs over 4.33 innings, which equates to a 6.24 ERA ...... not exactly shades of Jeremy Guthrie when he pitched all those quality starts back in the day, only to often be rewarded with either a loss or a no-decision because of the Orioles' anemic offense.

This is a peculiar thread.

[Creamsicle]

The bullpen didn't give up any runs.

The offense scored two runs.

Do you think that if the O's had made it a bullpen game they would have had a greater, lesser, or same chance of winning?

Who's to say they didn't?

3 runs surrendered is pretty good, most of the time. If Gonzo hurt us at all it likely won't be seen until tonight. Did his short outing overtax the pen? I dunno.

I'll also judge his individual performance based on how he's been doing lately overall. In the context of how bad some of his other recent starts were, I'm not too upset with 4.1 and 3.

[Can_of_corn]

Who's to say they didn't?

3 runs surrendered is pretty good, most of the time. If Gonzo hurt us at all it likely won't be seen until tonight. Did his short outing overtax the pen? I dunno.

I'll also judge his individual performance based on how he's been doing lately overall. In the context of how bad some of his other recent starts were, I'm not too upset with 4.1 and 3.

Three runs in 4 1/3 is not pretty good.

Not by a longshot.

[Creamsicle]

Three runs in 4 1/3 is not pretty good.

Not by a longshot.

Context.

And I meant 3 runs for the game.

Again, not praising MG here, nor even damning him with faint praise... just pointing out that there have been far more apt occasions lately to blame a team loss on his individual performance than last night gave us. Our offense scored only 2 runs - IMHO that, not pitching, was "the primary cause of the defeat".

[Redskins Rick]

Context.

And I meant 3 runs for the game.

Again, not praising MG here, nor even damning him with faint praise... just pointing out that there have been far more apt occasions lately to blame a team loss on his individual performance than last night gave us. Our offense scored only 2 runs - IMHO that, not pitching, is the primary cause of the loss.

In that content, I agree.

Not a quality start, and while you hope for a better performance, you cant say that he tanked it, which to me, is like 5-6 runs in a couple of innings.

Like Buck, has said over and over, you want your SP to keep you in the game, and let your offense win it.

2 runs, just doesn't cut it.

[sportsfan8703]

Miguel deserved the loss. 3 runs in 4.1 IP is terrible. He just hasn't been the same guy. Still like the guy.

[Creamsicle]

Pitching wins are stupid...

Agree w/ this. And with its corollary: pitching losses are stupid.

[Can_of_corn]

Context.

And I meant 3 runs for the game.

Again, not praising MG here, nor even damning him with faint praise... just pointing out that there have been far more apt occasions lately to blame a team loss on his individual performance than last night gave us. Our offense scored only 2 runs - IMHO that, not pitching, was "the primary cause of the defeat".

You do know that the only reason he gave up only three runs is because he couldn't make it out of the fifth? If the pen had been taxed and Buck had been forced to throw him for six how many do you think he would have given up.

[Creamsicle]

You do know that the only reason he gave up only three runs is because he couldn't make it out of the fifth? If the pen had been taxed and Buck had been forced to throw him for six how many do you think he would have given up.

That carries just about as much logical weight as the fact that he didn't give up a run after the third inning.

I think you're smarter than that.

[Can_of_corn]

That carries just about as much logical weight as the fact that he didn't give up a run after the third inning.

I think you're smarter than that.

I bet a lot more games are won when a teams scores 1-2 runs then when the starting pitcher only goes 4 1/3.

The offense scored runs, the bullpen shut down the other team.

Gonzo was the weak link and the primary cause of the loss.

He put the team behind early and stressed the bullpen in the midst of an extended streak of games w/out an off day.

[OFFNY]

Context.

And I meant 3 runs for the game.

Again, not praising MG here, nor even damning him with faint praise... just pointing out that there have been far more apt occasions lately to blame a team loss on his individual performance than last night gave us. Our offense scored only 2 runs - IMHO that, not pitching, was "the primary cause of the defeat".

That is not the context of the thread, though.

The thread is about Gonzalez not deserving the loss last night because of the fact that he only gave up 3 runs in 4.33 innings pitched.

Nobody is disputing that the bullpen did an excellent job last night, or that the offense was anemic. But the topic is whether or not Gonzalez deserved the loss. He was awful last night, hence the thread/topic has no leg to stand on.

I don't know Gonzalez personally, but I suspect that even HE would look at this thread and wonder what the heck the point of it was.

[Creamsicle]

That is not the context of the thread, though.

The thread is about Gonzalez not deserving the loss last night because of the fact that he only gave up 3 runs in 4.33 innings pitched.

Nobody is disputing that the bullpen did an excellent job last night, or that the offense was anemic. But the topic is whether or not Gonzalez deserved the loss. He was awful last night, hence the thread/topic has no leg to stand on.

I don't know Gonzalez personally, but I suspect that even HE would look at this thread and wonder what the heck the point of it was.

I understand what the original thrust of the thread was. My post which you quoted was a continuation of a conversation that had developed from that and took on its own path. CoC and I were debating the validity of the claim that MG's performance was the primary cause of last night's loss.

Interestingly, the word 'context' is helpful here too. As in, you seem to have missed the context of what I said.

And when you say "the context of the thread" I think you mean the topic of the thread. Again, my statement was part of a conversation within the thread, which doesn't necessarily mean that it must directly address the OP. That isn't how it works. That isn't how any of this works.

[OFFNY]

I understand what the original thrust of the thread was. My post which you quoted was a continuation of a conversation that had developed from that and took on its own path. CoC and I were debating the validity of the claim that MG's performance was the primary cause of last night's loss.

Interestingly, the word 'context' is helpful here too. As in, you seem to have missed the context of what I said.

And when you say "the context of the thread" I think you mean the topic of the thread. Again, my statement was part of a conversation within the thread, which doesn't necessarily mean that it must directly address the OP. That isn't how it works. That isn't how any of this works.

I didn't miss the context of what you said and/or your debate with Corn.

Because of Gonzalez' outing last night, the premise of it is absurd to begin with, which is why I redirected your post/comment.

Regarding your debate/conversation of what the primary reason for the loss is concerned, there were 2 primary reasons, and one of them was Gonzalez. So in my rat's ass of an opinion, it is splitting hairs arguing whether or not it was Gonzalez' lousy pitching that was the primary reason or the lousy offense was, because it was clearly both.

However, far be it from me to do anything other than express my feeling on the matter, which I have. So by all means, feel free to continue, as I will now drop out of this convo.

[SteveA]

Debating what was a bigger cause of a loss is just plain silly. What kind of prize do you get if you "win" the argument?

Gonzalez did not pitch well. We did not hit well. We lost.

Does anyone disagree with ANY of those last 3 sentences? I doubt it. So what exactly are you arguing about??? What % of "blame" should go to the starting pitcher as opposed to the hitters? Does it matter? Does determining which gets the bigger blame somehow absolve the other of having a bad game?