TT: The most productive Oriole in their history could surprise you!

[Just Regular]

You could argue that this was a unique situation, but also that the Orioles weren't using their resources in an optimal way. They used up what was a productive year of a very good MLB player's career by having him repeat AAA.

But what other team in recent MLB history had a rotation of four 20-game winners and a starting lineup where the worst hitter had a 97 OPS+, and their 4th outfielder in a non-DH league had an .870 OPS in almost 600 PAs? The 1971 Orioles didn't have a hole. They just didn't. I suppose they could have traded Baylor for, umm... something, but I don't know if that would have done anything positive for them.

It would have been hard for Baylor to complain too much when the team you're trying to get promoted to had four outfielders worth at least 2.9 rWAR. Four! In a non-DH league!

I had never heard it before but a friend told me recently that there was one offseason around here that the Orioles did not make any changes to the 40 man roster. Which makes for a good contrast to wildcard's thread on this year's comings and goings already.

[weams]

Grich slashed .352./461 /.612/1.073 in 193 AAA games so unless you a talking about some cold streak during those season that can't be found, I'm not sure when he was disappointing in Rochester offensively. As for choking early in his career, he slashed .275/.352/.477/.829 in high leverage situations in 1972, his first full season. He did struggle the year after in HLS slashing .183/.329/.278/.607 in 1973, but in 1974 he was back to .221/.354/.389/.744 and in 1975 at .291/.423/.436/.859.

Now he did struggle in the ALCS in 1973, so maybe that's what you mean. He certainly came up small slashing .100/.182/.250/.432 in the three games to two loss to the A's that year. Of course he did hit the go ahead homer in the top of the 8th inning to give the Orioles a 5-4 win and force a game 5 in that series.

I really liked Davey Johnson, but Grich was a great hitter. I liked his whole game. What fun years to be an Orioles fan.

[DrungoHazewood]

What is the accuracy on dWAR in the 70's? They didn't exactly track defense like today.

I think the defensive metrics figured retroactively are quite a lot better than just unadjusted fielding percentage, range factor, counting GGs, etc. But not on par with play-by-play metrics today.

I'll continue to beat the drum that dWAR shouldn't exist, or certainly shouldn't be regularly referenced. Defensive runs saved should be a component of WAR, dWAR is just defensive runs saved divided by ten (10 runs per win), plus adding on positional adjustment. But it's no longer a component of WAR, it's its own thing. You **can't** add oWAR to dWAR and get anything meaningful. There are no replacement-level defensive performance, only replacement-level players in the context of their total performances.

[srock]

I think the defensive metrics figured retroactively are quite a lot better than just unadjusted fielding percentage, range factor, counting GGs, etc. But not on par with play-by-play metrics today.

I'll continue to beat the drum that dWAR shouldn't exist, or certainly shouldn't be regularly referenced. Defensive runs saved should be a component of WAR, dWAR is just defensive runs saved divided by ten (10 runs per win), plus adding on positional adjustment. But it's no longer a component of WAR, it's its own thing. You **can't** add oWAR to dWAR and get anything meaningful. There are no replacement-level defensive performance, only replacement-level players in the context of their total performances.

I read an article about significant figures yesterday. DWAR in the last made me think about it. I can't see how it's possible to measure defense before play by play data with any meaningful accuracy.

DWAR might the best star we have for older players (I don't know) and its not meaningless. But it is far from ideal.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tntoriole]

That truly is remarkable. I know we were alive during this time, but neither us I'm sure have any recollection of those teams. I wish there was some secret stash of recorded games from the season that we could watch. That would be amazing.

I went to almost every home game that year, 1973, always in the bleachers, almost always kept a scorecard, my next door neighbor and I were both 16. It was the most fun summer I have ever had in my life. Enos Cabell and Tommy Davis were both great to kids in the bleachers before the games, they would almost always toss a ball and we got a bunch (for our sandlot team). But that team was just amazing. It was the first year for the DH, Tommy Davis did most of it for the Os, but I remember how unusual it was when I was scoring the game to have a DH and what to do with the pitcher. I remember a 16 inning game on a Sunday. It was against the Rangers (who were godawful, they had just moved the year before to Texas from Washington, Whitey Herzog was managing but got fired later in the year for Billy Martin). Don Stanhouse was pitching for the Rangers- Bobby Grich led off the 16th with a hit, then stole second, then Earl Williams knocked him in with a double.

There was a doubleheader against the Indians (also terrible) that I remember- Palmer pitched a one hit shutout in the first game, had a no hitter till the eighth inning when George Hendrick got a single. We won 9-0 and Bobby Grich hit a HR and hit a triple after Charlie Spikes fell down on that gravel near the left field wall. We won the second game 5-3- Jesse Jefferson gave up two homeruns to Charlie Spikes and the second one was starting the fourth inning and put us behind 3-0 and landed about three feet from where I was sitting in LF bleachers. Well, Earl was pissed OFF- he came out and took Jefferson out and was pointing at the ball and making gestures about the plate and then pointed out to the bleachers, etc. He brought in Bob Reynolds who shut out the Indians the rest of the way and we won 5-2- Andy Etchebarren hit a bases loaded double that cleared them (Brooks scoring barely all the way from first ).

That Orioles team and season are way up on my favorites of all time and I was really devastated when they lost game 5 to Catfish Hunter in the ALCS.

I was as devastated by that game five loss as I have been in any World Series loss or the loss to the Brewers on the last day in 1982.

[OFFNY]

I went to almost every home game that year, 1973, always in the bleachers, almost always kept a scorecard, my next door neighbor and I were both 16. It was the most fun summer I have ever had in my life. Enos Cabell and Tommy Davis were both great to kids in the bleachers before the games, they would almost always toss a ball and we got a bunch (for our sandlot team). But that team was just amazing. It was the first year for the DH, Tommy Davis did most of it for the Os, but I remember how unusual it was when I was scoring the game to have a DH and what to do with the pitcher. I remember a 16 inning game on a Sunday. It was against the Rangers (who were godawful, they had just moved the year before to Texas from Washington, Whitey Herzog was managing but got fired later in the year for Billy Martin). Don Stanhouse was pitching for the Rangers- Bobby Grich led off the 16th with a hit, then stole second, then Earl Williams knocked him in with a double.

There was a doubleheader against the Indians (also terrible) that I remember ...... Palmer pitched a one hit shutout in the first game, had a no hitter till the eighth inning when George Hendrick got a single.We won 9-0 and Bobby Grich hit a HR and hit a triple after Charlie Spikes fell down on that gravel near the left field wall.We won the second game 5-2- Jesse Jefferson gave up two homeruns to Charlie Spikes and the second one was starting the fourth inning and put us behind 3-0 and landed about three feet from where I was sitting in LF bleachers. Well, Earl was pissed OFF- he came out and took Jefferson out and was pointing at the ball and making gestures about the plate and then pointed out to the bleachers, etc. He brought in Bob Reynolds who shut out the Indians the rest of the way and we won 5-2- Andy Etchebarren hit a bases loaded double that cleared them (Brooks scoring barely all the way from first ).

That Orioles team and season are way up on my favorites of all time and I was really devastated when they lost game 5 to Catfish Hunter in the ALCS. I was as devastated by that Game Five loss, as I have been in any World Series loss, or the loss to the Brewers on the last day of the 1982 season.

You bastard.

[tntoriole]

You bastard.

Looking back, it almost deserves that Field of Dreams question..."is this Heaven?" "No, it's Memorial Stadium."

[tntoriole]

One more very vivid memory was a game late in the year against the MFYs...they were not very good that year but they were ahead in the game, and then Tommy Davis tied it in the ninth with a two out hit and then Earl Williams, the first guy up in the tenth, hit a walk off HR about five rows down from us. My friend kept jumping up and down on me as I was trying to write it down on my scorecard and he took the card and tore it into little pieces and threw them in the air. (I was happy and pissed at the same time...lol.)

[OFFNY]

I went to almost every home game that year, 1973, always in the bleachers, almost always kept a scorecard, my next door neighbor and I were both 16. It was the most fun summer I have ever had in my life. Enos Cabell and Tommy Davis were both great to kids in the bleachers before the games, they would almost always toss a ball and we got a bunch (for our sandlot team). But that team was just amazing. It was the first year for the DH, Tommy Davis did most of it for the Os, but I remember how unusual it was when I was scoring the game to have a DH and what to do with the pitcher. I remember a 16 inning game on a Sunday. It was against the Rangers (who were godawful, they had just moved the year before to Texas from Washington, Whitey Herzog was managing but got fired later in the year for Billy Martin). Don Stanhouse was pitching for the Rangers- Bobby Grich led off the 16th with a hit, then stole second, then Earl Williams knocked him in with a double.

There was a doubleheader against the Indians (also terrible) that I remember ...... Palmer pitched a one hit shutout in the first game, had a no hitter till the eighth inning when George Hendrick got a single.We won 9-0 and Bobby Grich hit a HR and hit a triple after Charlie Spikes fell down on that gravel near the left field wall.We won the second game 5-2- Jesse Jefferson gave up two homeruns to Charlie Spikes and the second one was starting the fourth inning and put us behind 3-0 and landed about three feet from where I was sitting in LF bleachers. Well, Earl was pissed OFF- he came out and took Jefferson out and was pointing at the ball and making gestures about the plate and then pointed out to the bleachers, etc. He brought in Bob Reynolds who shut out the Indians the rest of the way and we won 5-2- Andy Etchebarren hit a bases loaded double that cleared them (Brooks scoring barely all the way from first ).

That Orioles team and season are way up on my favorites of all time and I was really devastated when they lost game 5 to Catfish Hunter in the ALCS. I was as devastated by that Game Five loss, as I have been in any World Series loss, or the loss to the Brewers on the last day of the 1982 season.

And what is sometimes lost on people is that that Orioles team came oh so close to having a rematch of the 1969 World Series with the Mets. The 1969 Mets had Seaver, Koosman, and Gentry. The 1973 Mets had Seaver Koosman, and Matlack. The Orioles still had Palmer, Cuellar, and McNally atop their starting rotation, also.

Side note ...... in my rat's ass of an opinion, the real Miracle Mets team was the 1973 team, not the 1969 team.

The 1969 team won 100 games, and swept the Braves in the NLCS.

The 1973 Mets made it to the World Series with a record of 82-79 with one rain-out ...... to this day, that is the worst record ever for a team that has made it to the World Series.

The 1973 Mets also were in last place on August 30th ........ that's right, they went from last place to first place in the final month of the season.

Then they beat the heavily favored Cincinnati Red Machine in that year's N.L.C.S.

Finally, they pushed one of the all-time great teams (the 1972-1974 Oakland Athletics) to the brink in the World Series, 4 games to 3.

What the 1969 Mets and the 1973 Mets had in common were excellent pitching, and good defense ......, and when you have those two strengths, you can conquer giants in a short playoff series, as the Mets did in 1969 with the Orioles, and again in 1973 with the Reds, and nearly yet again in 1973 with the Athletics.

[Frobby]

Odd to hear from his biggest fan. I don't agree. This franchise marks its history by what happen before Frank came, while he was here and after he left. He led. He made all the other players better. He was the MVP of the league. I don't know how I could overstate what Frank meant and means to the O's.

There have been other great players that have played for the O's. But no one. Not even Brooks or Cal has had the impact he had. If you ask any of his O's teammates who was the different maker of those teams they will all say Frank.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. Of course I think that Frank was the greatest player ever to wear an Orioles uniform, the single most important player on the 1966-71 Orioles, and the best leader the team ever had. But with all that said, I think it is misleading to suggest that Frank was the sole reason the team went to 4 World Series in 6 years. I think it is fairly likely that, even without Frank, the O's would have won several pennants/division titles in that span, and perhaps a World Series or two. Those teams were that good.

[tntoriole]

I think you are misunderstanding my point. Of course I think that Frank was the greatest player ever to wear an Orioles uniform, the single most important player on the 1966-71 Orioles, and the best leader the team ever had. But with all that said, I think it is misleading to suggest that Frank was the sole reason the team went to 4 World Series in 6 years. I think it is fairly likely that, even without Frank, the O's would have won several pennants/division titles in that span, and perhaps a World Series or two. Those teams were that good.

Agreed. Frank truly was what Reggie tried to describe himself as years later "the straw that stirred the drink". A team that was very good, became great with the addition. Plus he was a helluva Kangaroo Court judge.

[tntoriole]

And the 1973 team led the AL in OBP, walks, runs scored, stolen bases but was only eighth in HRs. Their defense was unbelievably good- Brooks, Belanger, Grich, Blair and Jim Palmer had his first Cy Young year. They gave up fewer runs by far than any other team in the AL that year. Al Bumbry was rookie of the year and Richie Coggins was almost as good as a rookie with him.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Have you been dipping into the Christmas punch early?!?

It's... well... they didn't know any better until after he was dropped from the BBWAA ballot. His triple crown numbers and counting stats weren't awesome, and his combination of OBP and defense was under-appreciated. I hope some kind of Vet's Committee will eventually put him in, while he's still alive.

Same career if all you're looking at is on-field value during the regular season. Kind of like how you can be a little underwhelmed by some of Cal's numbers if you totally ignore his streak and his character and personality and leadership and defensive metrics.

It really comes down to his value is driven by on-base skills and defense, which can be overlooked or just missed. Rabbit Maranville had 43 rWAR but a .658 OPS compiled mostly in a hitter's era. Lou Whitaker has more rWAR than Grich despite never hitting 30 homers, never driving in 100, hit .276, didn't steal many bases, only had 30 doubles three times. Alan Trammell had almost the same value as Grich with a .767 OPS, no 30-homer seasons, one 100 RBI season.

Or for that matter Brooks. Let's say Brooks played for the A's or the Cubs or somebody, never had his World Series performances. Does his .267 average, .723 OPS and 268 homers get him to waltz into Cooperstown, even with 78 rWAR?

A little tougher with Cal considering the two MVPs and that he still is the all-time HR leader from the SS position.

[Superbee83]

I was at the Indians doubleheader as well.

IIRC, it was a twilight doubleheader and Hendrick broke up Palmer's no hit bid with a clean single up the middle.

I was sitting in the upper deck almost directly behind the plate.

While Grich's departure was a big loss after the 1975 season, Rich Dauer did a nice job at 2b.

Also, Earl weaver did a tremendous job in managing the 1976 Orioles after the losses of Grich, Reggie, and Wayne Garland.

[Superbee83]

He did but Earl showed tremendous patience with him. I want to say that Dauer started out in an 0 for 30 or 1 for 30 or something really horrific.

You are right, Dauer appeared over matched early on, but Weaver stuck with him and Dauer improved as the season progressed.

Also, all due respect to Grich's underrated offensive production, IMO Eddie Murray was the most productive Oriole that I have ever seen.