The rise and fall of Rafael Palmeiro

[El Gordo]

The selective outrage about cheating is remarkable. There are lots of Hall of Famers who are known cheaters: the Phillies of the late 1890s used an electrical system to steal signs, so that would take out Ed Delahanty, Elmer Flick and Nap Lajoie. Then there's all the pitchers who threw illegal pitches: most obviously Gaylord Perry, who built an entire career out of it, and also Whitey Ford, among many others. Plus there's all the cheating on the base paths of the Willie Keelers, Ty Cobbs, and John McGraws.

If you made cheating a disqualifier for the HOF, you'd have a very small HOF.

More importantly you'd spoil the fun for all the holier than thou high horsemen.

[24fps]

You call my statement remarkable and you compare taking steroids to murder? Please read my original statement again. I believe that you are innocent until proven guilty and that the punishment should fit the crime. If you are to punish someone, you should have details about what they did. We don't. We don't know what they did and we don't know how much it effected their performance.

My apologies if I offended your sensibilities with a non-comparison that you choose to interpret otherwise. Feel free to replace murder with say, nose-picking. Does that make my point clearer? Murder, nose-picking, whatever. What happened a hundred years ago is utterly irrelevant to David Ortiz's choice to take or not take PEDs in the early 2000's.

The system doesn't require your standard of proof or anything close to it. Nor should it, it's an impossible standard to meet if you take an absolutist position as you have. If players can duck into the shadows whenever it suits them, then those who are the gatekeepers to the HOF can claim personal judgement as their right. It's only fair. Deal with it.

[Moose Milligan]

My apologies if I offended your sensibilities with a non-comparison that you choose to interpret otherwise. Feel free to replace murder with say, nose-picking. Does that make my point clearer? Murder, nose-picking, whatever. What happened a hundred years ago is utterly irrelevant to David Ortiz's choice to take or not take PEDs in the early 2000's.

The system doesn't require your standard of proof or anything close to it. Nor should it, it's an impossible standard to meet if you take an absolutist position as you have. If players can duck into the shadows whenever it suits them, then those who are the gatekeepers to the HOF can claim personal judgement as their right. It's only fair. Deal with it.

I guess you prefer racists and (alleged) murderers to guys that take some PEDs. I know who I'd rather associate with, but that's just me.

[24fps]

I guess you prefer racists and (alleged) murderers to guys that take some PEDs. I know who I'd rather associate with, but that's just me.

Get back to me when you choose to address my post.

[Ohfan67]

I think it's willfully ignorant to think they solved the PED problem and the proof is that offense is off its peak. What of the fact that pitchers are caught using as often as hitters?

I didn't see anyone in this thread make that claim. I certainly didn't. I think there's evidence that the increase in consequences and better testing has reduced the use of steroids.

[brianod]

My apologies if I offended your sensibilities with a non-comparison that you choose to interpret otherwise. Feel free to replace murder with say, nose-picking. Does that make my point clearer? Murder, nose-picking, whatever. What happened a hundred years ago is utterly irrelevant to David Ortiz's choice to take or not take PEDs in the early 2000's.

The system doesn't require your standard of proof or anything close to it. Nor should it, it's an impossible standard to meet if you take an absolutist position as you have. If players can duck into the shadows whenever it suits them, then those who are the gatekeepers to the HOF can claim personal judgement as their right. It's only fair. Deal with it.

I don't mean to be argumentative. My opinion is that if you punish someone, it should be because you have proof of what they did, how they did it and the effect it had on those around them. It's not enough to suspect and infer. Also, there are a few players that would have made it on their stats before they were found to take enhancements. I honestly don't have a dog in this fight. I have no great affection for any of these guys. I simply believe in fairness and accountability. Keeping them out of the hall seems unfair and too convenient to me.

[24fps]

I don't mean to be argumentative. My opinion is that if you punish someone, it should be because you have proof of what they did, how they did it and the effect it had on those around them. It's not enough to suspect and infer. Also, there are a few players that would have made it on their stats before they were found to take enhancements. I honestly don't have a dog in this fight. I have no great affection for any of these guys. I simply believe in fairness and accountability. Keeping them out of the hall seems unfair and too convenient to me.

No one is keeping them out, they are not being voted in. It's an important distinction IMO. No one is entitled to a plaque at Cooperstown. On-field achievements earn you a right to be considered and that's it. If you want to complain about the process, fine. I get it. I would argue that there is a place for judgement in human affairs when certainty isn't possible - which is most of the time. This is an excellent and representative example why that should be.

[El Gordo]

David Ortiz failed a PED test once. It can't be proven that he ever did it more than once. He will probably be a first ballet HOFer, because he's popular with a lot of baseball writers. Raffey failed a PED test once. It can't be proven that he ever did it more than that. He has better numbers than Ortiz, was a much better all around player, but he is a pariah because he is not popular with the BBWAA. So much for your gate keepers and so much for the Hall of Baloney.

[24fps]

David Ortiz failed a PED test once. It can't be proven that he ever did it more than once. He will probably be a first ballet HOFer, because he's popular with a lot of baseball writers. Raffey failed a PED test once. It can't be proven that he ever did it more than that. He has better numbers than Ortiz, was a much better all around player, but he is a pariah because he is not popular with the BBWAA. So much for your gate keepers and so much for the Hall of Baloney.

Are you addressing me? People would respect you more if you did so directly. I know I would.

So how many failed PED tests are required to warrant exclusion from the HOF?

[Ohfan67]

I honestly don't understand getting that upset about the HOF aspect. The HOF is not owned or operated by Major League Baseball. It is a private non-profit and it created and controls the voting rules and everything else to with the HOF. The baseball writers association doesn't own the HOF, the HOF uses the writers as voters. As baseball fans we think of the HOF as hallowed ground, but it's just a museum. And despite not being officially "enshrined", the records and other special exploits of players that have not been elected are celebrated in the HOF. Pete Rose's hit record is immortalized in the HOF, for example. Officially banned players or PED era players still have their accomplishments immortalized, they just don't get a weekend and a plaque. I honestly don't think that's a big deal and don't understand the frustration about the HOF. Not saying anyone who feels or thinks otherwise is wrong, it's just that I don't see it as something to get too upset about. But some posters feel strongly about the HOF and are kind of "meh, who cares" about PED's. We all have our very unique takes on the "PED era". I guess that's why we talk about this multiple times a year.

[brianod]

Are you addressing me? People would respect you more if you did so directly. I know I would.

So how many failed PED tests are required to warrant exclusion from the HOF?

Perhaps the best argument for including the guys who deserve to be in would be Ortiz's performance after he was prevented from taking steroids?

[El Gordo]

Are you addressing me? People would respect you more if you did so directly. I know I would.

So how many failed PED tests are required to warrant exclusion from the HOF?

I am making a general observation. It's not always about you. I think the PED hysteria is PR bull**** from Bud Torquemada Selig. Baseball winked and nodded at PED'S when it served their interests, and then when it didn't they threw the players under the bus. They manipulate the ball specs and the strike zone, to make it appear testing is working, but the system is terribly ineffective and we have no idea how many players are still doing it. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around IMO. So pious moralizers look foolish to me.

[24fps]

I am making a general observation. It's not always about you. I think the PED hysteria is PR bull**** from Bud Torquemada Selig. Baseball winked and nodded at PED'S when it served their interests, and then when it didn't they threw the players under the bus. They manipulate the ball specs and the strike zone, to make it appear testing is working, but the system is terribly ineffective and we have no idea how many players are still doing it. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around IMO. So pious moralizers look foolish to me.

No, it's not always about me. But sometimes it is. Thanks for the clarification.

No argument about the abundance of hypocrisy although I think that several of your examples are speculative even though they're plausible. Some of them highly so.

Anyway, let's move things from the realm of pious moralizing and onto a more concrete basis. How many failed PED tests are needed to warrant exclusion from the HOF in your opinion?

[brianod]

Here is what happened. Baseball went through a renaissance during the Mcgwire/Sosa homerun battle. Baseball executives knew that they were both on steroids. They also knew that there were hundreds of other players on steroids. They also knew that the homerun battle was making the game extremely popular and an extremely popular game would reap huge tv revenues. So they let it go and ignored the systemic problem. I don't really have an issue with it. Let's not forget that guys in other sports were doing the same thing. So, do they take the moral high ground and end the practice or do they reap the benefits? Remember my earlier point about human beings always acting in their self interest. So, when congress calls them out, they do what executives everywhere do. Damage control. Find a few scapegoats and go on making the big bucks. Obvious, predictable and immoral. What is disappointing is that they got away with it

[Ohfan67]

There's a lot of hypocrisy for sure. I have a pretty harsh take on PED users but I enjoyed the McGuire-Sosa summer as much as anyone. And of course those guys were already suspected, especially McGuire. Sometimes I forget it's a business and it's mainly about making money for MLB and the players.