That yearly, hypothetical, fun question...

[El Gordo]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Cobb led the league in BA 12 times, stolen bases six times, and slugging eight times.

And Hoss Radbourn went 59-12 once and had 309 W in 11 seasons. Prefer him to Palmer?

[crissfan172]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And if they had both retired after 12 seasons we wouldn't be saying Bonds was better.

But they didn't.

Also, the steroid era skewed the league OPS and therefore Bonds' OPS+ is skewed too. Plus, as El Gordo pointed out, the stolen bases too. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, El Gordo said:

And Hoss Radbourn went 59-12 once and had 309 W in 11 seasons. Prefer him to Palmer?

Naw, his peak didn't last long enough.

[El Gordo]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And if they had both retired after 12 seasons we wouldn't be saying Bonds was better.

But they didn't.

But I would want age 30 Frank on my team over age 30 Bonds. Bonds wouldn't have played on a Buck team.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, crissfan172 said:

Also, the steroid era skewed the league OPS and therefore Bonds' OPS+ is skewed too. Plus, as El Gordo pointed out, the stolen bases too. 

How is his OPS+ skewed? 

As for stolen bases, while Frank did steal a fair number of bases, Bonds stole more.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, El Gordo said:

But I would want age 30 Frank on my team over age 30 Bonds. Bonds wouldn't have played on a Buck team.

But Delmon Young did. 

[crissfan172]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How is his OPS+ skewed? 

As for stolen bases, while Frank did steal a fair number of bases, Bonds stole more.

If the league's OPS is higher because of steroids, his OPS+ would be lowered. That is, if we're assuming Bonds was clean during his first 12 seasons, which seemed to be the implication of choosing those years. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, crissfan172 said:

If the league's OPS is higher because of steroids, his OPS+ would be lowered. That is, if we're assuming Bonds was clean during his first 12 seasons, which seemed to be the implication of choosing those years. 

Right, the high offense in his era would adversely effect his OPS+.

[crissfan172]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, the high offense in his era would adversely effect his OPS+.

That's my fault. I should have specified that the two numbers were inversely skewed. 

[crawjo]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

I agree with what you say here, but I do think that Palmer would accrue more strikeouts in today's environment, and that he was an intelligent pitcher who could adapt his own tendencies somewhat to account for the defense around him.    I don't buy into the sabermetric arguments that he was merely an above average pitcher with a historically great defense behind him.    He won a few Cy Youngs after Brooks, Blair, and Grich were gone from the scene.   

Palmer's last Cy Young was 1976, when he had Belanger and Grich up the middle, and Blair in center. 

[crawjo]

8 hours ago, Frobby said:

I agree with what you say here, but I do think that Palmer would accrue more strikeouts in today's environment, and that he was an intelligent pitcher who could adapt his own tendencies somewhat to account for the defense around him.    I don't buy into the sabermetric arguments that he was merely an above average pitcher with a historically great defense behind him.    He won a few Cy Youngs after Brooks, Blair, and Grich were gone from the scene.   

Also, Mussina was a pretty intelligent pitcher too. Palmer would have had problems with the left field power alley at Camden Yards, IMO. 

[Frobby]

47 minutes ago, crawjo said:

Palmer's last Cy Young was 1976, when he had Belanger and Grich up the middle, and Blair in center. 

 

46 minutes ago, crawjo said:

Also, Mussina was a pretty intelligent pitcher too. Palmer would have had problems with the left field power alley at Camden Yards, IMO. 

I stand corrected, I was looking at 1977 when I wrote that and mistakenly thought Palmer had won that year.    Palmer did win 20 in both '77 and '78, finishing 2nd and 3rd in the Cy Young voting, without Grich or Blair.   And Blair only started 89 games in '76.   In any event, I definitely feel Palmer benefitted from having a great defense behind him, so don't get me wrong.   But I still believe he would have been an ace without a top defense behind him.

And yes, Mussina was very smart and, like Palmer, had an assortment of plus pitches to choose from.    I loved watching both of them -- great stuff, AND thinking men's pitchers.

 

[El Gordo]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

But Delmon Young did. 

Did Delmon demand his own special corner, special chair  and TV in the clubhouse?

[Can_of_corn]

8 hours ago, El Gordo said:

Did Delmon demand his own special corner, special chair  and TV in the clubhouse?

Cal pretty much did (separate hotel). Are you saying Cal couldn't play for Buck?

[El Gordo]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Cal pretty much did (separate hotel). Are you saying Cal couldn't play for Buck?

Comparring Cal to Bonds in the clubhouse is a stretch.