If Manny stays he should play 3B.

[Beef Supreme]

1 hour ago, weams said:

I'm ok with playing number one draft choice shortstop Tim Beckham at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position. Give him a few years.

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

[Beef Supreme]

3 hours ago, UpstateNYfan said:

Like the words of other FA's....I Really would like to stay with club X, it's out of my hands it's up to my agents, etc. IMO, a team player says, "Put me where you need me most." In reality, Manny is one of the top 3 3rd basemen....not sure if that would hold true at SS (at least from a defensive aspect).

Baseball is not played that way. Offense and defense both count when rating top players at a position. Machado is a top 3 thirdbaseman with Arenado and Bryant. He would be a top 3 shortstop with Lindor and Correa.

[Luke-OH]

1 minute ago, Beef Supreme said:

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

I and I think everyone here would be ok with moving Beckham off SS if Manny is extended.  I just don't see any reason to do it if it's only for this year.  I was all about playing Manny at SS when he came up to the majors, if they were going to move him, they should have done it years ago.

Tampa and Beckham never got along, Tampa runs pretty well, but hasn't been the same since Friedman left, I think it's silly to think any FO (no matter how good) can't make mistakes.

[OFFNY]

48 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

Not only is it in the Orioles' best interest for Machado to remain at 3rd base, but it is probably in Machado's best interest, also.

The topic of the potential position switch was being discussed on one of the sports radios yesterday, and somebody asserted that shortstop required more lateral movement and agility than does 3rd base ........ and considering that Machado has been healthy since he had both of his knees surgically repaired in 2013 and 2014 respectively, it would probably not be wise to tempt fate by switching his position from 3rd base to shortstop at this point. When Machado has a good year defensively, he is the best 3rd baseman in the league. When Machado has a bad year defensively, he is still the 3rd or 4th best 3rd baseman in the league. Like the old cliche asserts, if it isn't broke, don't fix it ........ and in this particular case, trying to "fix it" may run a higher risk of literally unfixing the player himself.

 

o

 

 

8 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

 

I agree with the general assertion and I'm of the opinion he should stay at 3B unless he extends with the Orioles. However, the specific knee surgeries he had shouldn't affect lateral movements.

 

o

 

OK, thanks for the feedback.

But also, isn't the fact that Machado is heavier (from added muscle) since about the beginning of the 2015 season than he was in his first 3 Major League seasons (2012-2014) be to a disadvantage for him to try to move from 3rd base to shortstop because of the fact that the latter position requires one to cover more ground ??? Machado is stronger and more powerful on offense than he was previous to the weight gain, but he also clearly slower.

 

o

[Luke-OH]

Just now, OFFNY said:

 

 

o

 

OK, thanks.

Also, isn't the fact that Machado is heavier (from added muscle) since about the beginning of the 2015 season than he was in his first 3 Major League seasons (2012-2014) be to a disadvantage for him to try to move from 3rd base to shortstop because of the fact that the latter position requires one to cover more ground ??? Machado is stronger and more powerful on offense than he was previous to the weight gain, but he also clearly slower.

Yes, I agree, I think assuming he'd be just as good at SS as he was when he was younger is a bit presumptive.  I do think he'd be good there, his arm would allow him to play deeper than most SS.

[Beef Supreme]

Just now, phillyOs119 said:

I and I think everyone here would be ok with moving Beckham off SS if Manny is extended.  I just don't see any reason to do it if it's only for this year.  I was all about playing Manny at SS when he came up to the majors, if they were going to move him, they should have done it years ago.

Tampa and Beckham never got along, Tampa runs pretty well, but hasn't been the same since Friedman left, I think it's silly to think any FO (no matter how good) can't make mistakes.

They should have moved Machado to SS years ago, I agree. My past posts agree with you, too. But if the Orioles are going to enter the season with Machado on the roster -- indicating they are trying to win it all this season -- then they have an obligation to put their best possible team on the field without worrying about the politics. Aces in their places: Machado will be involved in twice as many plays at shortstop than he will be at thirdbase. That is what is most important if you are going for it: make the probability of winning as high as you can. And why are we so convinced that Beckham would not embrace a move to thirdbase. If front offices can make mistakes then so can players. Maybe he relishes a fresh start with a new organization and is willing to put the bad attitude about moving off of shortstop aside now.

[Luke-OH]

7 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

They should have moved Machado to SS years ago, I agree. My past posts agree with you, too. But if the Orioles are going to enter the season with Machado on the roster -- indicating they are trying to win it all this season -- then they have an obligation to put their best possible team on the field without worrying about the politics. Aces in their places: Machado will be involved in twice as many plays at shortstop than he will be at thirdbase. That is what is most important if you are going for it: make the probability of winning as high as you can. And why are we so convinced that Beckham would not embrace a move to thirdbase. If front offices can make mistakes then so can players. Maybe he relishes a fresh start with a new organization and is willing to put the bad attitude about moving off of shortstop aside now.

I've never said that.  I just think Manny at 3B and Beckham at SS is a better defense than Manny at SS and Beckham at 3B.  Then in 2019, there isn't a SS option in house, so you move Beckham back?

[Beef Supreme]

7 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

But also, isn't the fact that Machado is heavier (from added muscle) since about the beginning of the 2015 season than he was in his first 3 Major League seasons (2012-2014) be to a disadvantage for him to try to move from 3rd base to shortstop because of the fact that the latter position requires one to cover more ground ??? Machado is stronger and more powerful on offense than he was previous to the weight gain, but he also clearly slower.

Machado: 6'3" 185 lbs.
Andrelton Simmons: 6'2" 200 lbs.
Carlos Correa: 6'4" 215 lbs.
Corey Seager: 6'4" 220 lbs.
Addison Russel: 6'0' 200 lbs.
Xander Bogaerts: 6'1" 210 lbs.
Even Francisco Lindor weighs more at 190 pounds despite being only 5'11"!
Machado is the same weight as Trea Turner but two inches taller.

But Machado is too heavy and slow to play shortstop now?

Cal Ripken 6'4" 200 lbs. I am going to wager that Ripken's weight didn't lead many people who participate on OH to claim it prevented him from adequately fielding the position.

Also, could you cite sources about Machado being "clearly slower?"

[Beef Supreme]

3 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

I've never said that.  I just think Manny at 3B and Beckham at SS is a better defense than Manny at SS and Beckham at 3B.  Then in 2019, there isn't a SS option in house, so you move Beckham back?

I believe Manny at SS is far superior to the alternate alignment.

No, Beckham would not move back in 2019.

[Beef Supreme]

One more: Tim Beckham: 6'1" 205 lbs.
Somehow he can play the position but Manny can't because he now weighs 185 lbs. smh.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

Machado: 6'3" 185 lbs.
Andrelton Simmons: 6'2" 200 lbs.
Carlos Correa: 6'4" 215 lbs.
Corey Seager: 6'4" 220 lbs.
Addison Russel: 6'0' 200 lbs.
Xander Bogaerts: 6'1" 210 lbs.
Even Francisco Lindor weighs more at 190 pounds despite being only 5'11"!
Machado is the same weight as Trea Turner but two inches taller.

But Machado is too heavy and slow to play shortstop now?

Cal Ripken 6'4" 200 lbs. I am going to wager that Ripken's weight didn't lead many people who participate on OH to claim it prevented him from adequately fielding the position.

Also, could you cite sources about Machado being "clearly slower?"

You believe the listed heights/weights for players?

Hey look

According to this pre-draft scouting report Manny has grown an inch and only gained five pounds from when he was drafted.

[Luke-OH]

1 minute ago, Beef Supreme said:

Machado: 6'3" 185 lbs.
Andrelton Simmons: 6'2" 200 lbs.
Carlos Correa: 6'4" 215 lbs.
Corey Seager: 6'4" 220 lbs.
Addison Russel: 6'0' 200 lbs.
Xander Bogaerts: 6'1" 210 lbs.
Even Francisco Lindor weighs more at 190 pounds despite being only 5'11"!
Machado is the same weight as Trea Turner but two inches taller.

But Machado is too heavy and slow to play shortstop now?

Cal Ripken 6'4" 200 lbs. I am going to wager that Ripken's weight didn't lead many people who participate on OH to claim it prevented him from adequately fielding the position.

Also, could you cite sources about Machado being "clearly slower?"

Manny isn't 185 anymore, I'd wager a large amount on that.  Jon Jay is listed at 195 and he's the much smaller guy in the middle.

 

Do you really think Tim Beckham is heavier than Manny?

Never believe listed heights and weights.

[OFFNY]

1 hour ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

OK, thanks for the feedback.

But also, isn't the fact that Machado is heavier (from added muscle) since about the beginning of the 2015 season than he was in his first 3 Major League seasons (2012-2014) be to a disadvantage for him to try to move from 3rd base to shortstop because of the fact that the latter position requires one to cover more ground ??? Machado is stronger and more powerful on offense than he was previous to the weight gain, but he also clearly slower.

 

o

 

 

46 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

 

Machado: 6'3" 185 lbs.
Andrelton Simmons: 6'2" 200 lbs.
Carlos Correa: 6'4" 215 lbs.
Corey Seager: 6'4" 220 lbs.
Addison Russel: 6'0' 200 lbs.
Xander Bogaerts: 6'1" 210 lbs.
Even Francisco Lindor weighs more at 190 pounds despite being only 5'11"!
Machado is the same weight as Trea Turner but two inches taller.

But Machado is too heavy and slow to play shortstop now?

Cal Ripken 6'4" 200 lbs. I am going to wager that Ripken's weight didn't lead many people who participate on OH to claim it prevented him from adequately fielding the position.

Also, could you cite sources about Machado being "clearly slower?"

 

o

 

I didn't say that Machado couldn't play shortstop (and do at least a reasonably good job at it), I said that his added weight would likely make him less adept at it than he once would have been.

Yes, Cal Ripken, Jr was indeed a very solid (and underrated) defensive shortstop in his prime, but I believe that his size did play a factor in him not being quite as efficient/rangy as more athletic and smaller shortstops such as Ozzie Smith and Garry Templeton.

I suspect that if the stronger and more muscular (but slightly slower) Machado moved to shortstop, range might be at least slightly more of a factor than if he were to stay at 3rd base.

 

And no, I have no sources for my claim that Machado is slower than he was in his first few seasons in the Majors, other than my eyes that have watched about 130 or 140 Orioles games every season since he was first promoted to the Majors in August of 2012. I'm not being snarky, I'm simply conceding that I have no sources to cite for my claim, but do believe that my judgement in watching him over the years is correct.

 

o

[Luke-OH]

He's lost some speed according to statcast as well, although that is full out sprint speed, not necessarily applicable to the type of agility and quick twitch movements needed at SS.

[OFFNY]

36 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

You believe the listed heights/weights for players ???

Hey look

According to this pre-draft scouting report, Manny has grown an inch and only gained five pounds from when he was drafted.

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

o

 

Manny isn't 185 anymore, I'd wager a large amount on that. Jon Jay is listed at 195, and he's the much smaller guy in the middle.

 

 

 

 

Do you really think Tim Beckham is heavier than Manny ???

 

 

Never believe listed heights and weights.

 

o

o

 

Yeah, I remember when Lee May was continually listed at 6'3" and weighing 205 pounds in the late 1970's, and that was obviously not accurate.

I would presume that there would be less inaccuracies in that department in today's day and age, but I suppose that that presumption could very well be wrong.

 

o