If Manny stays he should play 3B.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Which guy? Beckham? Athletic but erratic. Tampa gave up on him for a reason. I think he has already proved himself to be average. I would love to be proven wrong. I guess thinking past 2018 Beckham at SS may be the right thing to do. Thinking of 2018, I could see good things happening with happy Manny in a walk year.

I guess I just have a higher opinion of Beckham than you.   3.3 rWAR, 3.5 fWAR last year.    That’s not average, that’s substantially above average.    Yes he is somewhat erratic, both offensively and defensively, but to me this is a guy with big upside and limited downside.    I’d rather see this year how he performs in a full season at SS, than have him play some 3B/UTI role this year and go into 2019 not knowing how he’d do if we handed him the SS job.    If I thought Manny could be coaxed to stay, I’d have a different opinion, but I believe if the two parties had the will to do a deal, it would have happened by now.     

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Beef Supreme said:

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

I am not convinced that Beckham can't get better at SS..   I have a lot of faith in Bobby Dickerson's ability to teach.  I have heard that Beckham is willing to put in the work.  And he is very open to learning.   With those elements in place along with his natural ability, I see no reason he can not improve.

[weams]

2 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

Right. I'm not. Manny played behind JJ Hardy at the position he would have liked to have played and now in his final season with the Orioles, He can DH if that helps the team either win or groom replacements. 

[weams]

3 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

Beckham may certainly be a suitable shortstop. Give him two or three seasons to see. 

[Beef Supreme]

50 minutes ago, weams said:

Right. I'm not. Manny played behind JJ Hardy at the position he would have liked to have played and now in his final season with the Orioles, He can DH if that helps the team either win or groom replacements.

It's a political issue for you. The 1st round draft pick stuff is just fluff.

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I guess I just have a higher opinion of Beckham than you.   3.3 rWAR, 3.5 fWAR last year.    That’s not average, that’s substantially above average.    Yes he is somewhat erratic, both offensively and defensively, but to me this is a guy with big upside and limited downside.    I’d rather see this year how he performs in a full season at SS, than have him play some 3B/UTI role this year and go into 2019 not knowing how he’d do if we handed him the SS job.    If I thought Manny could be coaxed to stay, I’d have a different opinion, but I believe if the two parties had the will to do a deal, it would have happened by now.     

How much of his WAR was from defense, though? His defense did not pass the eye test for me, but it is possible his range helps make up for all the errors.

[Beef Supreme]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

You believe the listed heights/weights for players?

Hey look

According to this pre-draft scouting report Manny has grown an inch and only gained five pounds from when he was drafted.

Blame the Orioles. Blame bbref.  I used the only measurements that were available. What I don't believe is that Manny filling out has significantly impacted his range. Nor do I believe he is bulkier than Correa or any other shortstops I listed when considering both height and weight.

What I believe is that Machado has better, faster reactions than Beckham and a far stronger and more accurate throwing arm. If the focus is on winning this year, play the superior defender as the centerpiece of the defense.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Beef Supreme said:

Blame the Orioles. Blame bbref.  I used the only measurements that were available. What I don't believe is that Manny filling out has significantly impacted his range. Nor do I believe he is bulkier than Correa or any other shortstops I listed when considering both height and weight.

What I believe is that Machado has better, faster reactions than Beckham and a far stronger and more accurate throwing arm. If the focus is on winning this year, play the superior defender as the centerpiece of the defense.

No, the superior defensive alignment should be used (allowing for offense of course).

If Manny at third, Beckham at short and Schoop at second is the more efficient alignment that is what you go with.  It is very possible that the difference between Manny and Beckham at short is less than the difference between them at third.

 

[weams]

55 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

It's a political issue for you. The 1st round draft pick stuff is just fluff.

Political? Huh?

[Luke-OH]

16 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

How much of his WAR was from defense, though? His defense did not pass the eye test for me, but it is possible his range helps make up for all the errors.

Season	Team	Batting	Base Running	Fielding	Positional	Offense	Defense	League	Replacement	RAR	WAR	Dollars	Salary
2013	Rays	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.0	0.2	0.1	0.0	0.2	0.6	0.1	$0.5
2015	Rays	-2.5	-0.5	-4.2	0.1	-2.9	-4.0	0.8	6.5	0.3	0.0	$0.3
2016	Rays	-0.5	-1.0	3.9	0.7	-1.5	4.6	0.8	6.5	10.3	1.1	$8.5
2017	2 Teams	6.2	0.6	3.2	5.5	6.8	8.7	2.1	17.8	35.4	3.5	$28.2

 

Mostly it was about being an above average hitter (at any position) playing the position with the worst hitting league-wide, but he did grade positively as a fielder (not by much, pretty average).

[Beef Supreme]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No, the superior defensive alignment should be used (allowing for offense of course).

If Manny at third, Beckham at short and Schoop at second is the more efficient alignment that is what you go with.  It is very possible that the difference between Manny and Beckham at short is less than the difference between them at third.

 

Since bunting has gone the way of the do-do, defense at third has lost some of its importance. I don't see how the Orioles would lose much so much with Beckham at 3B instead of Machado that would offset the gains the team would reap by playing Machado at SS over the inferior defender.

The superior defensive alignment means playing your best infielder at shortstop. Fill in the other two blanks after that. The most efficient alignment is -- and has always been -- centered on playing the best defensive infielder at the most important defensive position, shortstop.

The only thing standing in the way of playing the best fielding alignment is the politics of catering to Beckham. His happiness is a common defense used for not playing the best defensive team the Orioles could field. Or maybe some want to punish Machado for entering his last year of arbitration.

[Luke-OH]

13 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

Since bunting has gone the way of the do-do, defense at third has lost some of its importance. I don't see how the Orioles would lose much so much with Beckham at 3B instead of Machado that would offset the gains the team would reap by playing Machado at SS over the inferior defender.

The superior defensive alignment means playing your best infielder at shortstop. Fill in the other two blanks after that. The most efficient alignment is -- and has always been -- centered on playing the best defensive infielder at the most important defensive position, shortstop.

The only thing standing in the way of playing the best fielding alignment is the politics of catering to Beckham. His happiness is a common defense used for not playing the best defensive team the Orioles could field. Or maybe some want to punish Machado for entering his last year of arbitration.

SS is the most important defensive infield position, but I think you are overestimating the share of balls in play that are in the SS's area of the field as compared to the 3B's area.  It's about 10% more.

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, Beef Supreme said:

Since bunting has gone the way of the do-do, defense at third has lost some of its importance. I don't see how the Orioles would lose much so much with Beckham at 3B instead of Machado that would offset the gains the team would reap by playing Machado at SS over the inferior defender.

The superior defensive alignment means playing your best infielder at shortstop. Fill in the other two blanks after that. The most efficient alignment is -- and has always been -- centered on playing the best defensive infielder at the most important defensive position, shortstop.

The only thing standing in the way of playing the best fielding alignment is the politics of catering to Beckham. His happiness is a common defense used for not playing the best defensive team the Orioles could field. Or maybe some want to punish Machado for entering his last year of arbitration.

No.

That's just stupid.

Let's make up a scale from 1-100 on defense with higher being better.

If Player A is an 82 at short and a 75 at third while Player B is an 84 at short and a 96 at third you are telling me that the best alignment is Player B at short?

[weams]

1 hour ago, Beef Supreme said:

Since bunting has gone the way of the do-do, defense at third has lost some of its importance. I don't see how the Orioles would lose much so much with Beckham at 3B instead of Machado that would offset the gains the team would reap by playing Machado at SS over the inferior defender.

The superior defensive alignment means playing your best infielder at shortstop. Fill in the other two blanks after that. The most efficient alignment is -- and has always been -- centered on playing the best defensive infielder at the most important defensive position, shortstop.

The only thing standing in the way of playing the best fielding alignment is the politics of catering to Beckham. His happiness is a common defense used for not playing the best defensive team the Orioles could field. Or maybe some want to punish Machado for entering his last year of arbitration.

I happen to think he is a better third baseman than he will ever be a shortstop. No need to punish. No need to reward. 

[jabba72]

7 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

But you are not ok with playing number three draft choice shortstop Manny Machado at the position every game until he is as good as he can be at the position? You'd rather not play the universally lauded defensive wizard at the most important defensive position because a former number one pick has never shown himself to be a quality defender at the position where he has already been moved off of...

Beckham is not going to get any better defensively at 27 years of age. I liked the Beckham trade -- still do -- but he is not an MLB shortstop. He's a 3B or COF. I don't think I have ever said this but webbrick is right: "Beckham isn't and never will be a ML SS...everyone in the Tampa FO knows that," (though I disagree with him that Buck and the Orioles' Front Office know it).

Everyone on the OH wants the Orioles to run their front office like Tampa does. Learn from the decade they spent developing him.

Except the O's dont have another SS. Machado is leaving after one year, so I dont think he should move off 3B.  If they had a solid defensive SS with a bat, they wouldnt have traded for Beckham last year.