If Manny stays he should play 3B.

[Moose Milligan]

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

You can put Manny in RF, doesn't matter.  

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

No, the superior defensive alignment should be used (allowing for offense of course).

If Manny at third, Beckham at short and Schoop at second is the more efficient alignment that is what you go with.  It is very possible that the difference between Manny and Beckham at short is less than the difference between them at third.

 

Yes, I think that’s the issue.   And if it’s a close call, you leave the guy who will be with our organization for three years at SS and see if he can cut it.

[weams]

13 hours ago, Beef Supreme said:

It's a political issue for you. The 1st round draft pick stuff is just fluff.

Number one. Over all. 

[OFFNY]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

 

Anyone who believes Manny Machado is anything close to 185 pounds is pretty gullible, but probably something worse.

 

o

 

Imagine if boxers could get away with simply making a claim about how much they weigh ...... Larry Holmes would have been the greatest light-heavyweight champion of all-time. ) 

 

o

[Frobby]

Manny had a 5.4 UZR/150 in 2016 playing 380 innings there, which is not an insignificant amount.    My working assumption is that he’d be about at that level if he played it full time.    He might have bulked up slightly between early 2016 and now, but most of his bulking up was before then.   And with more experience he might avoid some mistakes he made.

Beckham was at 5.1 UZR/150 last year, +2.7 for his career.   About 2/3 of his career innings at SS came last year.

So, presumptively I don’t think there would be any big difference between Manny and Beckham at SS.    The bigger difference is likely to be at 3B, where anyone we put there is likely to be a big drop off from Manny.   

[Frobby]

http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2017/12/dickerson-on-machado-as-shortstop.html

[foxfield]

Manny would no doubt be a top 3b, SS, and without ever seeing him I would say he may well be a top 2b, 1b and COF.  He is that talented.  As such, I do not mind the Orioles chatting with him about his desire to play SS in 2018.  He moved to 3b and could have made that difficult.  I don't think I would go so far as to say the Orioles owe him the chance to go back to SS but I certainly do not mind the conversation.

Tim Beckham, has disappointed and the Rays moved him when he flashed his potential.  Smart on their part and good on the Orioles for grabbing him.  As Frobby says above, Beckham has tremendous upside and he flashed that value last year with a strong season by any metric.  His floor is a pretty good and usable player.  The upside is well...it's high even after accounting for his age 27 season.  I will remind everyone that JJ Hardy set a pretty high bar while here, but was 27 when acquired and had exactly one good season and zero gold gloves before arriving.  I see Beckham as a smart gamble and what he becomes should not be decided today.  But I think saying he is not, nor never will be, a MLB shortstop is seeing around a corner that my eyesight can't discern.  Those with that opinion are certainly entitled to it and I guess to be fair they could be correct.  But I would say his season last year alone, if maintained is more than credible as a MLB SS.

The question of whether Manny should move back is complex and the answer must at the end of the day be whatever Baltimore decides is best for Baltimore.  I want nothing more to see Manny play in Baltimore forever.  I will continue to hope that even if traded, that the O's find a way to bring him back.  I get that this is not likely and I will say that unless Manny says....move me to SS and I will sign a lifelong contract that is favorable to all...I struggle to see the benefit of moving him to SS.  Manny does not need to prove his ability to be more marketable, and the risk of moving and having another mediocre year that hurts his value is greater in my opinion than any marketability increase, but I think he generally just wants to be a SS.

Some say he is too big or too heavy or doesn't have the same speed.  Well, he is bigger, but his knees are repaired and the damage was genetic not physical.  I do not think he is damaged.  I also think those same arguments were made to Earl Weaver about a kid named Ripken.  Earl Weaver did not give a crap what people thought about any of those arguments and changed the game, paving the way for Jeter, Arod and others to play SS.  So, count me in the group that thinks that IF Manny moves to SS, he is automatically one of the games top SS, just as he is if he stays at 3b.

But the issue is should the O's move him and the answer to that has more to do with Schoop, Beckham perhaps even Mountcastle and what the Orioles brass thinks about those pieces.  Again, unless Manny has made overtures about staying, deciding what and where those players will be in the future mean more than what Manny wants to do.  Those answers alone should determine where Manny plays if he is in Baltimore.  Here's hoping that Manny still brings two SP and a couple prospects to play for someone else and then signs a LT deal to be an Oriole forever.

What?  It's January.  Everything is possible.  

[weams]

1 hour ago, foxfield said:

Manny would no doubt be a top 3b, SS, and without ever seeing him I would say he may well be a top 2b, 1b and COF.  He is that talented.  As such, I do not mind the Orioles chatting with him about his desire to play SS in 2018.  He moved to 3b and could have made that difficult.  I don't think I would go so far as to say the Orioles owe him the chance to go back to SS but I certainly do not mind the conversation.

Tim Beckham, has disappointed and the Rays moved him when he flashed his potential.  Smart on their part and good on the Orioles for grabbing him.  As Frobby says above, Beckham has tremendous upside and he flashed that value last year with a strong season by any metric.  His floor is a pretty good and usable player.  The upside is well...it's high even after accounting for his age 27 season.  I will remind everyone that JJ Hardy set a pretty high bar while here, but was 27 when acquired and had exactly one good season and zero gold gloves before arriving.  I see Beckham as a smart gamble and what he becomes should not be decided today.  But I think saying he is not, nor never will be, a MLB shortstop is seeing around a corner that my eyesight can't discern.  Those with that opinion are certainly entitled to it and I guess to be fair they could be correct.  But I would say his season last year alone, if maintained is more than credible as a MLB SS.

The question of whether Manny should move back is complex and the answer must at the end of the day be whatever Baltimore decides is best for Baltimore.  I want nothing more to see Manny play in Baltimore forever.  I will continue to hope that even if traded, that the O's find a way to bring him back.  I get that this is not likely and I will say that unless Manny says....move me to SS and I will sign a lifelong contract that is favorable to all...I struggle to see the benefit of moving him to SS.  Manny does not need to prove his ability to be more marketable, and the risk of moving and having another mediocre year that hurts his value is greater in my opinion than any marketability increase, but I think he generally just wants to be a SS.

Some say he is too big or too heavy or doesn't have the same speed.  Well, he is bigger, but his knees are repaired and the damage was genetic not physical.  I do not think he is damaged.  I also think those same arguments were made to Earl Weaver about a kid named Ripken.  Earl Weaver did not give a crap what people thought about any of those arguments and changed the game, paving the way for Jeter, Arod and others to play SS.  So, count me in the group that thinks that IF Manny moves to SS, he is automatically one of the games top SS, just as he is if he stays at 3b.

But the issue is should the O's move him and the answer to that has more to do with Schoop, Beckham perhaps even Mountcastle and what the Orioles brass thinks about those pieces.  Again, unless Manny has made overtures about staying, deciding what and where those players will be in the future mean more than what Manny wants to do.  Those answers alone should determine where Manny plays if he is in Baltimore.  Here's hoping that Manny still brings two SP and a couple prospects to play for someone else and then signs a LT deal to be an Oriole forever.

What?  It's January.  Everything is possible.  

Repairing knees surgically is always a issue. It’s not a cure. It is a repair. With the scars and physical limitations that always follow cutting into bodily structures. He will probably have a good career though. 

[foxfield]

I do not mean to minimize, the two surgeries, but he is not on Mickey Mantles knees either.  And I do not think it will limit him in his future contract (assuming he clears 2018 without issue)  

 

He will probably have a good career though?  I'll take the over.  

[Redskins Rick]

When was the last time, Manny publicly spoke in an interview about wanting to move from 3rd to SS?

I thought he had moved past that, and was willing to play where-ever the team wanted/needed him at.

[Ruzious]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:21 AM, RZNJ said:

Myth #1. Beckham can't get any better at SS at age 27 and Tampa Bay determined he isn't a SS and they are a smart organization.

If Tampa thought Beckham couldn't play SS then why at age 27 did they have him start virtually every game at SS from the beginning of the season until June 24th?

If he was so bad how did he put up a defensive WAR of .5 (positive) as a Ray?     The Rays moved Beckham when they acquired Adainy Hechavarria, who has played SS virtually his entire career and is known as a glove first SS.   There's not shame in being moved  off of SS for him.    The Rays may have wanted to upgrade their defense at SS or maybe just their infield defense in general by thinking they could upgrade two spots by obtaining Hechevarria.    It doesn't mean that Beckham can't play SS.    Just as it didn't mean the Orioles didn't think Machado could play SS when they resigned Hardy to play SS and kept Machado at 3B.

Tim Beckham made ONE error the whole month of September.     Some are using the surest handed SS in baseball as a barometer in J.J. Hardy.    Even Machado is going to look erratic compared to Hardy. 

 

Myth #2.  Manny Machado will be some kind of defensive wizard at SS.

Manny is clearly, at least, about 30 pounds heavier than he was as a minor leaguer and a rookie.   He has bulked up considerably.     In his brief career as a SS, Manny has committed errors at virtually the same rate as the "erratic" Beckham who has a whopping 163 total games played at SS at the ML level.    I'm sure Manny would be at least average and probably better but there is nothing to suggest that he'd be an elite defensive SS.    Even Bobby Dickerson said in the last day that Manny would have to change his workouts and change his body in order to play SS everyday.    That could/would probably effect his offense.    Heck, statistically a bulked up Manny has lost something at 3B.    His defensive WAR last season was his lowest over a full season at 1.0.     Of course, some just assume he'll move over to SS and be a GG guy over there.

 

 

 

Well said.  And it's one thing to know Manny would need to lose a lot of weight to play SS; it's another to assume that he'll do it - which I don't - particularly since I think he was a bit heavier last year than was ideal for him at 3B.   I just want him to lose enough weight to play his best at 3B.  

[wildbillhiccup]

If Manny stays he should play where the Orioles think he should play (to best help the team) not where Manny thinks he should play to best help his upcoming free agency. 

[Redskins Rick]

18 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If Manny stays he should play where the Orioles think he should play (to best help the team) not where Manny thinks he should play to best help his upcoming free agency. 

Show me something in the past 2 years, where Manny is demanding to play SS

[Ruzious]

On 12/30/2017 at 5:31 PM, Beef Supreme said:

Blame the Orioles. Blame bbref.  I used the only measurements that were available. What I don't believe is that Manny filling out has significantly impacted his range. Nor do I believe he is bulkier than Correa or any other shortstops I listed when considering both height and weight.

What I believe is that Machado has better, faster reactions than Beckham and a far stronger and more accurate throwing arm. If the focus is on winning this year, play the superior defender as the centerpiece of the defense.

I'm not sure how it's even possible for the same player as a 190 lb rookie is going to have the same range at 225 lbs when he's a 26 year old veteran.  Machado's still great at 3rd, though he'd be better if he lost a few pounds, and Beckham appears to be adequate at SS.  Why make Machado a slightly above average SS and risk having nobody at 3B - especially when there's very limited upside in making that change?  Makes no sense.       

[weams]

5 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I'm not sure how it's even possible for the same player as a 190 lb rookie is going to have the same range at 225 lbs when he's a 26 year old veteran.  Machado's still great at 3rd, though he'd be better if he lost a few pounds, and Beckham appears to be adequate at SS.  Why make Machado a slightly above average SS and risk having nobody at 3B - especially when there's very limited upside in making that change?  Makes no sense.       

I know Schoop was up to 245. Are you certain Manny is only 225?