Birds Watcher: Schoop and Thursday (Schoop Signs for 8.5 Million)

[jsbearr]

11 minutes ago, foxfield said:

My premise was not whether the deal actually worked or not.  My premise was Schoop needed a loan and his advisors sold him an annuity.  That annuity may or may not pay out at or above market rates.  But the advisor had many tools to provide services to Jonathan and "sold" not that provided the best upside to the seller or buyer than to Schoop.  That happens all the time from Car Mechanics to Wall Street.  But it is the definition of poor service and again, in my opinion, the people that "pushed" that should be ashamed and exposed.

I guess I would have painted it more into the exploitation category if the money was a sure thing as opposed to probability based.  For instance, what that buy out company did to Freddie Gray and similarly impacted kids is pretty horrific because it paid immediate money on a certain future pay schedule.  As evidence by the other players, the pay schedule for this group needed one player to break out for the company to pull a profit off this portfolio.  I have a hard time calling this one exploitation.  Maybe I am wrong.

[weams]

My only argument against a “loan” is that had Jon’s knee not have provided him the stability to play among the greatest 800 players in the sport, he could easily have been trying to pay back millions based on $750 dollar a month independent league income. 

[weams]

The idea of the sale of the future earnings is a hedge and also a wall against signing a long term deal discount deal to get some generational wealth into the pipeline early. 

[Frobby]

After exhaustively studying the salaries of other 2B when they had 4+ years of service time, I think Schoop will lose his arb case if he pushes it.     Only one 2B with 4+ years of service has ever made $9 mm — Robinson Cano, who had 4.154 years of service time and thus was eligible for arbitration for the third time.    Next behind him are Roughned Odor (who is under a long term deal that will pay him $7.83 mm when he has 4+ years of service in 2019) and Dee Gordon (who made $7.8 mm when he had 4.154 years of service; like Cano, he was going through arbitration a third time).     All other active 2B made less than $7 mm: Castro $6.857 mm (4.150), Kipnis ($6.166 mm (4.069), Dozier $6 mm $4.100), Pedroia $5.75 mm (4.041), Murphy $5.7 mm (4.109), Harrison $5.25 mm (4.033), Phillips $5.187 mm (4.022) and under $5 mm from there.    

[foxfield]

6 minutes ago, jsbearr said:

I guess I would have painted it more into the exploitation category if the money was a sure thing as opposed to probability based.  For instance, what that buy out company did to Freddie Gray and similarly impacted kids is pretty horrific because it paid immediate money on a certain future pay schedule.  As evidence by the other players, the pay schedule for this group needed one player to break out for the company to pull a profit off this portfolio.  I have a hard time calling this one exploitation.  Maybe I am wrong.

These are good thoughts.  And I do not mean to insinuate that Fantex and it's reps are or were criminals.  The business model they built for this IS defunct however.  My point is if you are representing me, and someone wants to sell me something or more specifically, pay me now for something I am already doing...I might well question whether you could have provided those resources with less costs.  I would also wonder how you got paid for the transaction?

And while I am calling this exploitation, I certainly respect your right to disagree.  I will note that all good service ideas, require happy clients to come back...and yet, this group, Fantax has not wowed anyone.

[foxfield]

12 minutes ago, weams said:

My only argument against a “loan” is that had Jon’s knee not have provided him the stability to play among the greatest 800 players in the sport, he could easily have been trying to pay back millions based on $750 dollar a month independent league income. 

Sure, Mike, and who would be holding the risk on that???  Jon?

This is making my point.  His advisors could have gotten him a better package to meet needs without urging him to be a trial run on a hedge fund.  In fairness, I have zero knowledge of Jonathan Schoops financial needs at the time this deal was done.

He could have had a multimillion cash transaction that could not have waited.  And his advisors could have procured a loan  that did not produce enough cash.  Hell his advisors could have advised against the transaction and he did it anyway.  There are many ways this could have gone down.

Following the current theme of his advisors have given him bad advice in skipping Fan Fest, I simply wondered or more realistically, worried, that Jon receiving bad advice is nothing new.  But in fairness I do not know that at all...

[Tx Oriole]

5 hours ago, weams said:

I think he has gotten bad financial advice. I believe gambling on beating the Orioles here is a sucker's bet. I assume the Oriole offer is 8.25+

Maybe from Manny? 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Tx Oriole said:

Maybe from Manny? 

His agent.

[weams]

3 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Sure, Mike, and who would be holding the risk on that???  Jon?

This is making my point.  His advisors could have gotten him a better package to meet needs without urging him to be a trial run on a hedge fund.  In fairness, I have zero knowledge of Jonathan Schoops financial needs at the time this deal was done.

He could have had a multimillion cash transaction that could not have waited.  And his advisors could have procured a loan  that did not produce enough cash.  Hell his advisors could have advised against the transaction and he did it anyway.  There are many ways this could have gone down.

Following the current theme of his advisors have given him bad advice in skipping Fan Fest, I simply wondered or more realistically, worried, that Jon receiving bad advice is nothing new.  But in fairness I do not know that at all...

I Know it helps make your point. I believe at the time Jon was not certain that he would ever make 50 million dollars. He told someone I know this at the time. I wish he had had his agent go to the Orioles and say to them I would like 5 million dollars now and I will settle for normal arb progression and give you one more season of control as an option at 15 million. I think everyone would have been happy with that. 

[weams]

I think many agents do not have their clients best interest at heart. I think like the rest of the game it is a business and the 800 guys that can do it are the one that fuel the flame. 

[weams]

I believe if Jon had come to Fanfest he would have gotten his deal while there. Maybe not 9. But enough. I believe the Orioles would like to get another season out of him. I do not think that his agent is looking long range. He is looking to get his slice of a single year contract get the automatic raise next year and go to FA in 2020.  Three nice commissions. 

[Enjoy Terror]

6 hours ago, weams said:

The largest is Houston Astros’ outfielder, George Springer. He filed for $10.5MM, while the Astros countered at $8.5MM. Springer’s hearing is yet to be set, in case you were wondering.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/02/astros-george-springer-extension-two-years.html

The Astros have agreed to a two-year, $24MM contract with outfielder George Springer, reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today (via Twitter). Springer, a Super Two player who was in his second trip through the arbitration process, will earn $12MM in each year of the deal. Springer is represented by the Legacy Agency.

[foxfield]

6 minutes ago, weams said:

I think many agents do not have their clients best interest at heart. I think like the rest of the game it is a business and the 800 guys that can do it are the one that fuel the flame. 

That is sad...but likely true.

[wildcard]

32 minutes ago, Frobby said:

After exhaustively studying the salaries of other 2B when they had 4+ years of service time, I think Schoop will lose his arb case if he pushes it.     Only one 2B with 4+ years of service has ever made $9 mm — Robinson Cano, who had 4.154 years of service time and thus was eligible for arbitration for the third time.    Next behind him are Roughned Odor (who is under a long term deal that will pay him $7.83 mm when he has 4+ years of service in 2019) and Dee Gordon (who made $7.8 mm when he had 4.154 years of service; like Cano, he was going through arbitration a third time).     All other active 2B made less than $7 mm: Castro $6.857 mm (4.150), Kipnis ($6.166 mm (4.069), Dozier $6 mm $4.100), Pedroia $5.75 mm (4.041), Murphy $5.7 mm (4.109), Harrison $5.25 mm (4.033), Phillips $5.187 mm (4.022) and under $5 mm from there.    

Hard to tell.  Most of the guys you cite where already on long term agreement by their 4+ season.   With Jon being an AS and 12th in the MVP and then going to arbitration, he has a case.   Could go either way.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, foxfield said:

These are good thoughts.  And I do not mean to insinuate that Fantex and it's reps are or were criminals.  The business model they built for this IS defunct however.  My point is if you are representing me, and someone wants to sell me something or more specifically, pay me now for something I am already doing...I might well question whether you could have provided those resources with less costs.  I would also wonder how you got paid for the transaction?

And while I am calling this exploitation, I certainly respect your right to disagree.  I will note that all good service ideas, require happy clients to come back...and yet, this group, Fantax has not wowed anyone.

My impression was that Fantex didn’t try to find additional players beyond the original 17 or so because the appetite for this in the investor community turned out to be quite limited.    I personally thought it was a pretty interesting proposition and I can see why some players might find it appealing.   I wouldn’t be able to say Schoop got bad advice without knowing exactly what advice he got about the pros, cons, and alternatives to the arrangement.    It certainly appears now that he’ll end up outearning his payout by a substantial amount, eventually.    But the deal did guarantee him a certain amount of financial security.