Duquette: "Extensive Conversations a Couple Years Ago" with Manny

[TonySoprano]

Assuming there were discussions in Spring of 2016, before then you have to go back to 2013

Quote

While the Orioles avoided arbitration with their 23-year-old budding superstar, discussions did not extend toward locking up Machado long term. The Orioles last approached Machado about a long-term extension following the 2013 season, but that talk gained no traction.

Baltimore Sun, Jan 15 2016 -http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-orioles-agree-to-big-raise-for-manny-machado-avoid-arbitration-with-chris-tillman-ryan-flaherty-20160115-story.html

[weams]

11 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-schmuck-machado-trout-20180630-story.html

 

Big Money.

[InsideCoroner]

10 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm sure that gap that was between them a couple years ago doesn't look so big all of a sudden.  

Should have paid him and kept him at 3rd.  

I have a hunch Manny would have pushed his way to shortstop even if he re-signed.

[atomic]

I don't see how it is a PR move.  Manny said he wasn't treated like Trout.  And DD brings up how Trout won a couple of MVP and is having the best start to a career of any player in Major League history.  I am not sure why people have to see everything in a negative light. Manny thinks he is Mike Trout but he punches players, throws bats at players, demands position changes and isn't really all that good. 

Trout has twice the career WAR that Manny has.  I am not sure why people are down on the club not giving Manny a 34 million a year contract.  He is lucky to put up 3 WAR this year and put 3.4 WAR last year.  It looks like the 3rd year in a row of declining WAR.  The club did the right thing.  If only they had done the right thing with Davis. 

[Superbee83]

3 hours ago, atomic said:

I don't see how it is a PR move.  Manny said he wasn't treated like Trout.  And DD brings up how Trout won a couple of MVP and is having the best start to a career of any player in Major League history.  I am not sure why people have to see everything in a negative light. Manny thinks he is Mike Trout but he punches players, throws bats at players, demands position changes and isn't really all that good. 

Trout has twice the career WAR that Manny has.  I am not sure why people are down on the club not giving Manny a 34 million a year contract.  He is lucky to put up 3 WAR this year and put 3.4 WAR last year.  It looks like the 3rd year in a row of declining WAR.  The club did the right thing.  If only they had done the right thing with Davis. 

 

 I think DD''s statement is a bit of a PR move, Manny wanted to be paid like Trout to buy out his arbitration years, but despite being an excellent player, he is not MIke Trout. While I think Manny is a real good player, the shenanigans you mention are pretty good reasons not to plan on building your team around this guy. The Orioles are better off using Machado to help rebuild the team. The biggest mistake they made was not signing him to an extension, rather it was holding onto him going into this season. I believe that they could have gotten a better trade return this winter and more importantly, started the rebuilding process sooner than later.

[Babypowder]

14 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Casual fans are a whole different animal than we are.  I met an O's fan the other day and he started praising Trumbo.

I had conversation with a couple of guys at the airport when I was waiting to board to head down for spring training this year. One of the guys said we should get rid of everyone on the team except for "Joey Baseball", who he said was the best player on the team and that was incredible considering his size. I was very confused.

I was even more confused when it was clear he was talking about Joey Rickard. Who had just had a terrible season in 2017 and spent a significant portion of it in the minors.

These types of conversations happen to me all the time when someone sees my hat or at the ballpark. Most Orioles fans are not like us.

[Tx Oriole]

15 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bs-sp-schmuck-machado-trout-20180630-story.html

 

Well the O's ownership couldn't pay 250 or 300 million for Manny. He's not worth that. Manny needs to go to a large market team. 

[Frobby]

Here are my thoughts about the article:

1.   Without knowing what year Duquette is talking about, what the Orioles offered and what Manny was asking for, I really can’t say if the Orioles did all they could or if Manny was asking for too much.  

2.   However, I have impressions.   My impression is that the Orioles tried once and then never tried again; that they didn’t offer enough considering Manny’s intrinsic value; and that they should have tried again but didn’t.   Just my impressions based on various quotes by the two sides over the years, but I really don’t know for sure.

3.   Obviously, Manny is not as good as Trout and in a perfect world, Trout would be paid much more than Manny on an annualized basis.   

4.    At the same time, Trout’s a bad yardstick because he’s ridiculously underpaid.    And that was obvious from the day his deal was signed.     If the O’s had offered Manny Trout’s exact deal (which I’m sure they didn’t) and Manny had taken it, that would have been a very good deal for the O’s.

5.   I no longer care.   Having Manny isn’t the difference between them being a contender and being an awful team.   They have Manny now, paying him half of what he’ll earn next year, and they stink.    So now, getting what they can in a trade makes more sense than signing him, even if they could sign him.    

[tntoriole]

21 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Here are my thoughts about the article:

1.   Without knowing what year Duquette is talking about, what the Orioles offered and what Manny was asking for, I really can’t say if the Orioles did all they could or if Manny was asking for too much.  

2.   However, I have impressions.   My impression is that the Orioles tried once and then never tried again; that they didn’t offer enough considering Manny’s intrinsic value; and that they should have tried again but didn’t.   Just my impressions based on various quotes by the two sides over the years, but I really don’t know for sure.

3.   Obviously, Manny is not as good as Trout and in a perfect world, Trout would be paid much more than Manny on an annualized basis.   

4.    At the same time, Trout’s a bad yardstick because he’s ridiculously underpaid.    And that was obvious from the day his deal was signed.     If the O’s had offered Manny Trout’s exact deal (which I’m sure they didn’t) and Manny had taken it, that would have been a very good deal for the O’s.

5.   I no longer care.   Having Manny isn’t the difference between them being a contender and being an awful team.   They have Manny now, paying him half of what he’ll earn next year, and they stink.    So now, getting what they can in a trade makes more sense than signing him, even if they could sign him.    

Trout has made 77 million thus far in the bigs and produced 61 WAR this costing the Angels 792,000 per 1 WAR

Manny has made 34 million and produced 29.6 WAR thus costing us 870,000 per 1 WAR

Trout has provided more value obviously, but we have gotten plenty of value from Manny too. 

[Fuzzball22]

Trout is the highest paid player this year at 34 million. Just using Manny's full years his average WAR is about 6.0. Using Trout's full seasons his average WAR is 9.4. Manny's WAR is less than two thirds of Trouts. He should get paid less than two thirds of Trout. Based on that Manny should get somewhere around 20 million a year. If he gets a 5 for 120 he should be very happy. He wont be happy with that because I bet he thinks he is a 30 million dollar a year player.

[tntoriole]

22 minutes ago, Fuzzball22 said:

Trout is the highest paid player this year at 34 million. Just using Manny's full years his average WAR is about 6.0. Using Trout's full seasons his average WAR is 9.4. Manny's WAR is less than two thirds of Trouts. He should get paid less than two thirds of Trout. Based on that Manny should get somewhere around 20 million a year. If he gets a 5 for 120 he should be very happy. He wont be happy with that because I bet he thinks he is a 30 million dollar a year player.

Sounds way low to me.  The question is whether as a buyer, I think Manny is still on the upswing or is 6 WAR peaked out.   Or do I think Manny possibly has anywhere near a few  8-9 seasons in the picture.  I think Manny is a fairly good bet for at least five or six seasons of significantly more than 6 WAR average.   But even if not, at 10million per WAR,  one could argue that even at 40 million per year, he would produce sufficient value over the deal given his age. 

Heck, Cano got 240 million per in his 10 year deal at age 30...Manny will be much closer to 40 million per than 30 million per year I predict. 

[Fuzzball22]

16 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Sounds way low to me.  The question is whether as a buyer, I think Manny is still on the upswing or is 6 WAR peaked out.   Or do I think Manny possibly has anywhere near a few  8-9 seasons in the picture.  I think Manny is a fairly good bet for at least five or six seasons of significantly more than 6 WAR average.   But even if not, at 10million per WAR,  one could argue that even at 40 million per year, he would produce sufficient value over the deal given his age. 

Heck, Cano got 240 million per in his 10 year deal at age 30...Manny will be much closer to 40 million per than 30 million per year I predict. 

So at 10 million per WAR Trout should be paid 90 million? It seems to be a much different market then when Cano signed. I find it hard to believe anybody would pay Manny 30 million a year let alone 40 million. Manny currently has a 1.6 WAR according to baseball reference.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Fuzzball22 said:

So at 10 million per WAR Trout should be paid 90 million? It seems to be a much different market then when Cano signed. I find it hard to believe anybody would pay Manny 30 million a year let alone 40 million. Manny currently has a 1.6 WAR according to baseball reference.

1.6 X 2 = 3.2.  3.2 X 10M = 32M.

And Fangraphs has him at 3 wins.

My guess is whatever teams signs him is going to move him back to third were he would have more value than he has shown at short this year.

[Malike]

I just hope they can get something for him. Machado kind of screwed himself by insisting on playing shortstop. He's the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, by a wide margin. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

I just hope they can get something for him. Machado kind of screwed himself by insisting on playing shortstop. He's the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, by a wide margin. 

Yep, I think he would have been a lot better off playing third this year and then trying to convince teams he can still play short.