Chasing the Worst Record Ever

[atomic]

4 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If my Facebook / Twitter feeds are any indication a lot of the fans that go the Orioles' games sure did. Plus you have a MAGA supporter on a local "sport's" station (Ed Norris, 105.7 The Fan) spouting his pro-Trump rhetoric. Ok, I'm seriously stepping off the soap box now. No need to regulate, mods. 

I haven't listened to Ed Norris for years but he has to be the most annoying person on earth.   Have no idea what he was doing on a sports station.  Didn't he get fired from his former job for beating up his wife? 

[wildbillhiccup]

4 minutes ago, atomic said:

I haven't listened to Ed Norris for years but he has to be the most annoying person on earth.   Have no idea what he was doing on a sports station.  Didn't he get fired from his former job for beating up his wife? 

Corruption...and he did time. It's embarrassing that he's even on the air. 

In December 2003, Norris was indicted on three charges by U.S. Attorney Thomas DiBiagio. Two of the counts charged Norris had made illegal personal expenditures of over $20,000 from the Baltimore Police Department’s supplemental account in order to pay for expensive gifts, personal expenses, and extramarital affairs with at least six women.^[3] The third count alleged that he had lied on a mortgage application, stating that approximately $9,000 he received from his father was a gift, when it was actually a loan.

Norris was investigated by the US Attorney of Maryland for abuse of a non-taxpayer funded expense account. While looking for violations, it was discovered that Norris borrowed $9,000 from his father for a home purchase. Norris and his father signed gift letters stating the money was a gift. It was discovered that Norris had returned the money to his father at a later date; at that point the gift became a loan. Norris was then indicted for making a false statement on a mortgage application.

In a plea agreement, the mortgage charge was dropped in exchange for a guilty plea of abusing the expense account, which Norris had denied. On March 8, 2004 Norris pleaded guilty to federal corruption and tax charges.^[4] Norris was sentenced to six months in federal prison in Yazoo City, Mississippi and Atlanta, Georgia, to be followed by three years of supervised probation and ordered to perform 500 hours of community service. The case alleged lavish gifts and meals were given to friends and girlfriends.

Despite the guilty plea, Norris has publicly maintained his innocence claiming that the case was politically motivated and the guilty plea was forced because of his mortgage issue. In an October 9, 2006 newspaper article Norris admitted to using the money from the alleged accounts, but said that he paid it back in full before he left office to take the position of Maryland State Police Superintendent. ^[5]

[weams]

 

[weams]

15 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Corruption...and he did time. It's embarrassing that he's even on the air. 

In December 2003, Norris was indicted on three charges by U.S. Attorney Thomas DiBiagio. Two of the counts charged Norris had made illegal personal expenditures of over $20,000 from the Baltimore Police Department’s supplemental account in order to pay for expensive gifts, personal expenses, and extramarital affairs with at least six women.^[3] The third count alleged that he had lied on a mortgage application, stating that approximately $9,000 he received from his father was a gift, when it was actually a loan.

Norris was investigated by the US Attorney of Maryland for abuse of a non-taxpayer funded expense account. While looking for violations, it was discovered that Norris borrowed $9,000 from his father for a home purchase. Norris and his father signed gift letters stating the money was a gift. It was discovered that Norris had returned the money to his father at a later date; at that point the gift became a loan. Norris was then indicted for making a false statement on a mortgage application.

In a plea agreement, the mortgage charge was dropped in exchange for a guilty plea of abusing the expense account, which Norris had denied. On March 8, 2004 Norris pleaded guilty to federal corruption and tax charges.^[4] Norris was sentenced to six months in federal prison in Yazoo City, Mississippi and Atlanta, Georgia, to be followed by three years of supervised probation and ordered to perform 500 hours of community service. The case alleged lavish gifts and meals were given to friends and girlfriends.

Despite the guilty plea, Norris has publicly maintained his innocence claiming that the case was politically motivated and the guilty plea was forced because of his mortgage issue. In an October 9, 2006 newspaper article Norris admitted to using the money from the alleged accounts, but said that he paid it back in full before he left office to take the position of Maryland State Police Superintendent. ^[5]

But he was in the Wire...

[Ohfan67]

2 hours ago, foxfield said:

That is a caveat the size of the Grand Canyon.  And I covered the same.  I would also point out it is incorrect to assign players that are "here already" as being outside of DD's preview.  You say on one hand the pieces of the core were already here, but the development was poor.  Pretty sure it was DD who dropped a 19 year old Manny Machado at 3B and of course Schoop and Mancini as well as others developed during DD's time.

We cannot select only pieces we dont like.  And as we have both noted there have been moves that have not worked.  

What we do not know, is whether r not his hands were tied on say....Chris Davis or Mark Trumbo.  Or even if some of the moves like Ubaldo and Gallardo were "fallback choices because his actual choices were blocked.  Im not saying this happened either.  I am saying by many accounts, that there have been multiple decision makers.  I want them held accountable.  If the calls were largely DD's.  He should go.

If he has been blocked from doing his job and there result is where we are.  Im fine if he stays, as long as he has full control.

In a sense, I am not sure we are really saying anything different.  I think if anything, I believe he may have been hindered in doing his job, more so than you....

Cheers

I’m not doing that at all. DD did not draft or develop most of the core. That’s a fact. I said he didn’t develop them, not that development was poor. 

 

This regime ultimately failed. Big time. DD made a lot of poor choices, couldn’t convince ownership to make good moves, or, most likely, did both. The minor leagues and organization as a whole look no better than it did on the day he arrived. Part of that is the lack of top draft picks, but even that is partly to blame on the regime (they flushed first round picks down the mediocre free agent hole). The Orioles are flirting with the worst season in modern baseball. Their minor league system is mediocre at best. There is no acceptable excuse. Squinting hard at a few positives should not blind anyone from looking at the hard results. Historically bad team and a mediocre system. If he couldn’t convince ownership to do the right thing, then that’s a huge failure too. I have zero faith left in DD, Buck, etc. the results speak for themselves. 

[Satyr3206]

6 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I’m not doing that at all. DD did not draft or develop most of the core. That’s a fact. I said he didn’t develop them, not that development was poor. 

 

This regime ultimately failed. Big time. DD made a lot of poor choices, couldn’t convince ownership to make good moves, or, most likely, did both. The minor leagues and organization as a whole look no better than it did on the day he arrived. Part of that is the lack of top draft picks, but even that is partly to blame on the regime (they flushed first round picks down the mediocre free agent hole). The Orioles are flirting with the worst season in modern baseball. Their minor league system is mediocre at best. There is no acceptable excuse. Squinting hard at a few positives should not blind anyone from looking at the hard results. Historically bad team and a mediocre system. If he couldn’t convince ownership to do the right thing, then that’s a huge failure too. I have zero faith left in DD, Buck, etc. the results speak for themselves. 

There have been very few instances of any GM convincing PA of anything.

[foxfield]

6 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I’m not doing that at all. DD did not draft or develop most of the core. That’s a fact. I said he didn’t develop them, not that development was poor. 

 

This regime ultimately failed. Big time. DD made a lot of poor choices, couldn’t convince ownership to make good moves, or, most likely, did both. The minor leagues and organization as a whole look no better than it did on the day he arrived. Part of that is the lack of top draft picks, but even that is partly to blame on the regime (they flushed first round picks down the mediocre free agent hole). The Orioles are flirting with the worst season in modern baseball. Their minor league system is mediocre at best. There is no acceptable excuse. Squinting hard at a few positives should not blind anyone from looking at the hard results. Historically bad team and a mediocre system. If he couldn’t convince ownership to do the right thing, then that’s a huge failure too. I have zero faith left in DD, Buck, etc. the results speak for themselves. 

Literally do not disagree with a word.  However, I think Buck, DD are both quality professionals and mistakes made because of ownership, may well have been the best they could do.  I just don't know.  That's all Im really saying.  Our structure is flawed and sure that could be on DD for not selling ownership.  Or it could be on Buck for extracting more power.  It could be on Brady, because he struck out with Cal on deck.  Sorry, that part isn't true, Im pretty sure of that.

My point is we do not know who has made what decision other than these:  We can't participate in foreign markets, and only ownership makes extensions. And I am not saying one bad decision is an excuse for another, but I am saying that ownership is the root cause of problems.  And I am fine trickling that down and throwing out everyone.  I am.

However, if we name a GM and give them full authority, a budget and the right to run a team without interference, I will be thrilled.  Whoever that person is.  And if it doesn't happen I won't care who it is.

Good civil discussion.  Thanks

[Natty]

How many GM's survive a less than .300 winning pct season? If DD stays...There is something funny going on.

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, Satyr3206 said:

There have been very few instances of any GM convincing PA of anything.

I think MacPhail had a lot of influence when he was first hired. I think DD earned ownership trust after initial success. 

[Ohfan67]

1 hour ago, foxfield said:

Literally do not disagree with a word.  However, I think Buck, DD are both quality professionals and mistakes made because of ownership, may well have been the best they could do.  I just don't know.  That's all Im really saying.  Our structure is flawed and sure that could be on DD for not selling ownership.  Or it could be on Buck for extracting more power.  It could be on Brady, because he struck out with Cal on deck.  Sorry, that part isn't true, Im pretty sure of that.

My point is we do not know who has made what decision other than these:  We can't participate in foreign markets, and only ownership makes extensions. And I am not saying one bad decision is an excuse for another, but I am saying that ownership is the root cause of problems.  And I am fine trickling that down and throwing out everyone.  I am.

However, if we name a GM and give them full authority, a budget and the right to run a team without interference, I will be thrilled.  Whoever that person is.  And if it doesn't happen I won't care who it is.

Good civil discussion.  Thanks

I hear you. Ownership was and may still be a giant problem. But I think when you look beyond Chris Davis and the few other big money signs, the rosters have been extremely poorly constructed. I don't think Peter Angelos told DD that he couldn't sign a competent outfielder or two and had to sign a lot of DH's. I don't think they told DD to keep multiple rule 5 picks on the roster as long as possible. 

 

Some of this year's results are bad luck, bad mojo, etc. It's hard to understand how so many players (young, middle aged, and old players) could all suck so bad at once, but it has happened. The roster was very poorly constructed. Sprinkle in a few injuries and one or two spectacular collapses in performance and the whole team went into a defeated funk. I think the rapid funk part was partly Buck...Britton's recent comments in an interview support the notion that Buck lost some faith with the Ubaldo decision, etc. 

 

It's time for a clean sweep. Maybe the Angelos boys know who's to blame and maybe it wasn't partly on DD, but that's just hard for me to blame. Their dad seemed to give new VP's the widest latitude to get things done. I say bring in some new blood for VP and let that person pick the new manager, etc. This team is pathetic and the organization as a whole has only really taken baby steps since MacPhail was hired. I just don't trust DD to get the job done in terms of his modern baseball acumen and his ability to work with the ownership on big changes.