Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[25 Nuggets]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Vizquel was a compiler. He played until he was 45. He also has no business being in the HOF. If you're going to be a good defensive middle infielder and not hit the gold standard is Ozzie. Vizquel is no Ozzie. 

I agree -- Ozzie was also a better hitter than Vizquel by a fair margin.  Vizquel is basically Rabbit Maranville.

(look Rabbit up if you don't know of him - he's in Cooperstown)

[25 Nuggets]

15 hours ago, eddie83 said:

I think Will Clark and Hershiser were better than both. And Orel had one of the most magical runs of all time and was dominant albeit for a short stretch.  

Will Clark wouldn't lower the bar for HOF 1B, in my opinion.  He had a good peak in San Fran and he's about the 20th best 1B all time.

Orel, eh... I'd be so-so about.  Better than some.  I can probably think of 15 starting pitchers I'd rather support.

[25 Nuggets]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I want a large and mostly consistent Hall.  What I don't like is a Hall that puts in the top 10 (unless you were teammates with someone who hit homers in the 90s), then 13, 18, 22, 32, 45, 89, 112, and 334.  Which is basically the way it is now.  

There aren't enough intangibles in Joe Morgan's Christmas stocking to make #112 worthy and #11 not.

Right with you Drungo.  I'll take the good (Alan Trammell) with the bad though.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

I also understand the DH debate, one dimensional players don't deserve to be in, is held by many. Personally, I am on the fence and torn about this issue.

Sandy Koufax couldn't hit a lick and Ty Wigginton was a better shortstop.  

It's about value.  Doesn't matter how many dimensions it came in.

[TonySoprano]

2 hours ago, weams said:

So WAR must be a non standard evaluation measure. 

Well then, what is it good for?

Absolutely nothing!
Say it again!

[25 Nuggets]

It's not just about WAR with Harold Baines.

He didn't lead the league in anything... except once.  Slugging% in 1984.  He therefore has a Black Ink score of 3.  Our buddy Mad Dog Russo talks about wanting to see Bold Type -- this is what he means.  He's not the only guy that thinks like that.

Not only that, but Baines didn't finish in the top ten in his league in much.  He is 655th all time in Gray Ink score, which compiles top ten finishes in stats.  That's even lower than what his paltry Black Ink score of 3 gives him (560th).  He never, not once finished in the top ten in total bases.  And this is a DH we're talking about.  He simply was not one of the best hitters in baseball.

He's got very little hardware.  One Silver Slugger award in 1989.  A 9th and a 10th place finish in MVP voting.  He's 640th on the career MVP list.

So, even by more traditional standards he doesn't measure up.

[TonySoprano]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Joe Posnanski wrote about Baines this morning.  If you guys aren't signed up for his Patreon, you are slippin'.  He writes all the time, it's great.  The columns get mailed to your inbox.  He wrote an individual column about each of the 10 people up for the vote this year.  

Anyway, here's how he summarized what it means for the HoF moving forward.  I'm not posting the whole thing since it's paid content, but I'd encourage you guys to go sign up for his stuff.

 

https://www.patreon.com/JoeBlogs/posts

 

 

 

Yeah, this is going to open the door for Don Mattingly, OPS+ 127,  9 gold gloves, a league MVP + MVP runner-up.   Not a HOF'er, but who knows now?  He'll probably go in the Hall with Captain Over-rated Jeter.

[DrungoHazewood]

19 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

LOL

I'm actually interested in how many Hall of Fame players you think are worse than Harold Baines.  I may work on my own list.

 

Just going by memory, and only position players... Ray Schalk, Tommy McCarthy, Freddie Lindstrom, High Pockets Kelly, George Kell, Bill Mazeroski, Chick Hafey, maybe Ross Youngs, the bad Waner (Lloyd, right?).  Which Farrell did they put in, the catcher who couldn't hit instead of the pitcher who could, right?  Rick Ferrell... we'll go with him.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Just going by memory, and only position players... Ray Schalk, Tommy McCarthy, Freddie Lindstrom, High Pockets Kelly, George Kell, Bill Mazeroski, Chick Hafey, maybe Ross Youngs, the bad Waner (Lloyd, right?).  Which Farrell did they put in, the catcher who couldn't hit instead of the pitcher who could, right?  Rick Ferrell... we'll go with him.  

Ernie Lombardi was way better.

[25 Nuggets]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

Just going by memory, and only position players... Ray Schalk, Tommy McCarthy, Freddie Lindstrom, High Pockets Kelly, George Kell, Bill Mazeroski, Chick Hafey, maybe Ross Youngs, the bad Waner (Lloyd, right?).  Which Farrell did they put in, the catcher who couldn't hit instead of the pitcher who could, right?  Rick Ferrell... we'll go with him.  

Tommy McCarthy is the most horrendous Cooperstown election.  I'm still stunned by that one.

Lloyd Waner was the worse of the Waner Bros, correct.  And it is Rick Farrell the catcher.

I'm convinced Ray Schalk was elected because he was a clean player on the Black Sox.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Yeah, this is going to open the door for Don Mattingly, OPS+ 127,  9 gold gloves, a league MVP + MVP runner-up.   Not a HOF'er, but who knows now?

I'm all in on Keith Hernandez.  If you can't have guys who do PEDs, at least have one that did a blow.  Aside from Raines and Molitor.

 

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Just going by memory, and only position players... Ray Schalk, Tommy McCarthy, Freddie Lindstrom, High Pockets Kelly, George Kell, Bill Mazeroski, Chick Hafey, maybe Ross Youngs, the bad Waner (Lloyd, right?).  Which Farrell did they put in, the catcher who couldn't hit instead of the pitcher who could, right?  Rick Ferrell... we'll go with him.  

The bad Waner wasn't really that bad, he hit for a good average but zero power.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

3 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Yeah, this is going to open the door for Don Mattingly, OPS+ 127,  9 gold gloves, a league MVP + MVP runner-up.   Not a HOF'er, but who knows now?

Then open up the barn doors.  Keith Hernandez career OPS+ 128, league MVP,  vital member of two world series winning teams and 11 gold golves. 

[25 Nuggets]

4 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Yeah, this is going to open the door for Don Mattingly, OPS+ 127,  9 gold gloves, a league MVP + MVP runner-up.   Not a HOF'er, but who knows now?

The players that are going to be on next year's committee ballot are much better than what we're seeing here.

Dale Murphy has a strong HOF case.  Not just because of the two MVP awards

Lou Whitaker, I hope he's included.  He should be in Cooperstown next to Trammell.

Luis Tiant may be the best pitcher available across the committees.

I could add more -- Dick Allen, Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, Graig Nettles -- all of them who played in that time window and all of them with better cases.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

It's not just about WAR with Harold Baines.

He didn't lead the league in anything... except once.  Slugging% in 1984.  He therefore has a Black Ink score of 3.  Our buddy Mad Dog Russo talks about wanting to see Bold Type -- this is what he means.  He's not the only guy that thinks like that.

Not only that, but Baines didn't finish in the top ten in his league in much.  He is 655th all time in Gray Ink score, which compiles top ten finishes in stats.  That's even lower than what his paltry Black Ink score of 3 gives him (560th).  He never, not once finished in the top ten in total bases.  And this is a DH we're talking about.  He simply was not one of the best hitters in baseball.

He's got very little hardware.  One Silver Slugger award in 1989.  A 9th and a 10th place finish in MVP voting.  He's 640th on the career MVP list.

So, even by more traditional standards he doesn't measure up.

What this shows is that there's no consensus on anything.  Lots of people talk about impact to pennant races and playoffs and dominating.  Black ink, grey ink.  "Don't want these Hall of Very good guys running up counting stats for 20 years."  But then they put in Baines and Morris who were big-time compilers with tons of innings and at bats who rarely led the league in anything.  The oldtimers don't want anything to do with WAR and analysis and then they induct Blyleven and Trammell mostly on the strength of career value as measured by WAR.  The BBWAA is split on steroids and PEDs in general.  

It's like a presidental primary with 17 candidates.  You will get some results that don't make sense.

[25 Nuggets]

3 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Then open up the barn doors.  Keith Hernandez career OPS+ 128, league MVP,  vital member of two world series winning teams and 11 gold golves. 

He should be in Cooperstown IMO.