Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[Es4M11]

On 12/9/2018 at 8:46 PM, Can_of_corn said:

I think they are trying to put in some "clean" guys.

With the exception of a few more notable cases, and the obvious guys who were popped, how does this committee (or anyone) even begin to figure this one out? This just creates a bigger mess, IMO. Now a whole host of players who were very good, but not quite HOF (IMO) will have legitimate gripe with guys like Harold Baines and Lee Smith getting in. I'd list some names, but it's too long, and you already know the names anyway.

[DrungoHazewood]

19 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Every Hall has its controversies and problems with selections. 

“The Hockey Hall of Fame has been criticized for inducting several lacklustre candidates in the early 2000s decade due to "a shortage of true greatness". Since then, some have claimed that the Hall of Fame has become too exclusive. The Hall of Fame has also been criticized for failing to induct international players and critics have claimed that the Hall has been far too focused on the National Hockey League. A common statement is that it is more of an "NHL Hall of Fame" than a general Hockey Hall of Fame.

Conn Smythe served as the Hall's chairman for several years, but resigned in June 1971 when Harvey “Busher” Jackson was posthumously elected into the Hall. Smythe said that it made him sick to think of Jackson alongside such Toronto Maple Leafs players as "Apps, Primeau, Conacher, Clancy and Kennedy. If the standards are going to be lowered I'll get out as chairman of the board." Jackson was notorious for his off-ice lifestyle of drinking and broken marriages. Smythe would not condone the induction and even tried to block it because he considered Jackson a poor role model. Frank Selke, head of the selection committee defended the selection on the belief that a man should not be shut out "because of the amount of beer he drank".”   wikipedia entry for Hockey Hall of Fame

Sports fans mainly like to argue...thus the inherent controversies in any Best of the Best discussion. 

This is the nature of subjective selection criteria.  I think Poz wrote a piece once facetiously but logically arguing that Babe Ruth is the only deserving Hall of Famer, and even he's kind of borderline.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

This is the nature of subjective selection criteria.  I think Poz wrote a piece once facetiously but logically arguing that Babe Ruth is the only deserving Hall of Famer, and even he's kind of borderline.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25506993/free-agent-pitcher-adam-ottavino-says-whiff-babe-ruth

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Es4M11 said:

With the exception of a few more notable cases, and the obvious guys who were popped, how does this committee (or anyone) even begin to figure this one out? This just creates a bigger mess, IMO. Now a whole host of players who were very good, but not quite HOF (IMO) will have legitimate gripe with guys like Harold Baines and Lee Smith getting in. I'd list some names, but it's too long, and you already know the names anyway.

They don't figure it out.  They're just trying to poke a stick at Bonds and Clemens and the rest. 

It is kind of funny that the Baines pick appears to be because they thought the nicest guy in baseball would never do PEDs.  But their non-enhanced standard bearer had some really good seasons in the 1990s at ages where most people have been retired for six or eight years.  If he hadn't been quite so quiet and decent you know that would raise all kinds of questions.  I mean, he was teammates with Raffy and Brady and Joey Belle...

[25 Nuggets]

32 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

They don't figure it out.  They're just trying to poke a stick at Bonds and Clemens and the rest. 

It is kind of funny that the Baines pick appears to be because they thought the nicest guy in baseball would never do PEDs.  But their non-enhanced standard bearer had some really good seasons in the 1990s at ages where most people have been retired for six or eight years.  If he hadn't been quite so quiet and decent you know that would raise all kinds of questions.  I mean, he was teammates with Raffy and Brady and Joey Belle...

My hypothesis is that the players know who cheated and who didn't, and every one of them plays dumb.

[wildbillhiccup]

I really think the folks with HOF votes are overthinking the steriod thing. If you don't think Bonds and Clemens too steroids until the tail end of their careers then they should get in. If you think McGwire took steroids the whole time (I do) then he shouldn't get in. And all offenders elected should have a asterisk next to their name. Consider it the baseball equivalent of the scarlet letter. 

[DrungoHazewood]

41 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I really think the folks with HOF votes are overthinking the steriod thing. If you don't think Bonds and Clemens too steroids until the tail end of their careers then they should get in. If you think McGwire took steroids the whole time (I do) then he shouldn't get in. And all offenders elected should have a asterisk next to their name. Consider it the baseball equivalent of the scarlet letter. 

Who are the offenders who get a scarlet letter?  Popped on a test?  Mitchell report?  Hit 9 nine homers one year and 28 the next?  Back acne?  Was surly sometime in the 1990-2010 period?

[wildbillhiccup]

52 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Who are the offenders who get a scarlet letter?  Popped on a test?  Mitchell report?  Hit 9 nine homers one year and 28 the next?  Back acne?  Was surly sometime in the 1990-2010 period?

That's what I was thinking. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Who are the offenders who get a scarlet letter?  Popped on a test?  Mitchell report?  Hit 9 nine homers one year and 28 the next?  Back acne?  Was surly sometime in the 1990-2010 period?

You spelled 1970 wrong.

[TonySoprano]

Harold chokes up, reflecting on his late father
https://www.mlb.com/video/baines-smith-on-entering-hof/c-2520871083?tid=6479266

[25 Nuggets]

3 hours ago, Es4M11 said:

With the exception of a few more notable cases, and the obvious guys who were popped, how does this committee (or anyone) even begin to figure this one out? This just creates a bigger mess, IMO. Now a whole host of players who were very good, but not quite HOF (IMO) will have legitimate gripe with guys like Harold Baines and Lee Smith getting in. I'd list some names, but it's too long, and you already know the names anyway.

Said host of players already had a legitimate gripe with guys like Freddie Lindstrom and High Pockets Kelly getting in.

[atomic]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Omar Vizquel had 2877.  I think it's unlikely he goes in anytime soon.  There are nine players who are HOF eligible with no scandals I know of and 2700+ hits who aren't in.

Baines has about the same case as Al Oliver or Rusty Staub.  As far as I know they're all good guys, good players, long careers, but offensively oriented careers where they didn't really lead the league in much of anything.

Missed Vizquel.  But the other players with more hits than Baines not in the Hall of Fame:

 

Pete Rose
Derek Jeter
Adrian Beltre
Alex Rodriquez
Ichior Suzuki
Albert Pujols
Rafeal Palermeiro
Sam Rice
Barry Bonds

 

Rose, Rafeal, and Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame.   I suspect Jeter, Beltre, Suzuki and Pujols will get in.  A-Rod should get in if you base it on his baseball play.  So that leave Sam Rice. Who retired in 1934.  I dont' think Baines is a terrible pick.  Better choice than some other players mentioned in this thread that are stated as more deserving.  There is more to baseball than WAR.  Hard for a DH to get a high WAR but you still need a DH. 

[atomic]

Case in point on DH and WAR.  David Ortiz only has 55 WAR.  He is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.  He is penalized by WAR by being a DH.  But surely he is a first ballot guy.    People need to stop saying WAR all the time like it is the only thing that matters. DH's and Closers won't have 100 WAR careers so if you want to exclude them because of their position it is pretty ridiculous. 

[25 Nuggets]

Presenting my "Worse Than Harold Baines" List, in alphabetical order:

1. Rick Ferrell
2. Chick Hafey
3. Jesse Haines
4. George "High Pockets" Kelly
5. Freddie Lindstrom
6. Rube Marquard
7. Bill Mazeroski
8. Tommy McCarthy
9. Herb Pennock
10. Ray Schalk
11. Lloyd Waner
12. Ross Youngs

That's um... that's it.  Even Chief Bender, Jim Bottomley, Jack Chesbro, Burleigh Grimes and George Kell... I think their resumes are a bit better.  So, I've got Baines the 13th worst player in the Hall (not counting the Negro Leagues, which has a couple question marks).

[25 Nuggets]

12 minutes ago, atomic said:

Case in point on DH and WAR.  David Ortiz only has 55 WAR.  He is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.  He is penalized by WAR by being a DH.  But surely he is a first ballot guy.    People need to stop saying WAR all the time like it is the only thing that matters. DH's and Closers won't have 100 WAR careers so if you want to exclude them because of their position it is pretty ridiculous. 

Is everyone really going to gloss over the steroid rumors?

Edgar Martinez should get in on his final ballot now.  His rWAR is 68.4, much higher than Ortiz.